ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

[_Chap]

Here in essence is how Bishop Ussher did his calculations that produced a creation in 4004 BC:

Now you ask, how did he get the year 4004 BC?

Answer: He took the chronologies in Genesis 5 and 11, together with some other Bible passages which we will look at. To simplify the calculations, we will tie the chronology to the fall of Jerusalem in 588 BC. The detailed calculations cover over 100 pages in the original document!

From Genesis 5 we get the following:
First Genealogy-Genesis 5
Verse Event Age of the Earth
1:1-31 Creation 0
5:3 Seth born when Adam, 130 130
5:6 Enos born when Seth, 105 235
5:9 Cainan born when Enos, 90 325
5:12 Mahalaleel born when Cainan, 70 395
5:15 Jared born when Mahalaleel, 65 460
5:18 Enoch born when Jared, 162 622
5:21 Methuselah born when Enoch, 65 687
5:25 Lamech born when Methuselah, 187 874
5:28 Noah born when Lamech, 182 1056
11:10 Shem born when Noah, 502 1558
7:6 Flood when Noah, 600 1656

From Genesis 11 we get:
11:10 Arphaxad born when Shem, 100 1658
11:12 Salah born when Arphad, 35 1693
11:14 Eber born when Salah, 30 1723
11:16 Peleg born when Eber, 34 1757
11:18 Reu born when Peleg, 30 1787
11:20 Serug born when Reu, 32 1819
11:22 Nahor born when Serug, 30 1849
11:24 Terah born when Nahor, 29 1878
11:32, 12:4 Abraham born when Terah, 130 2008
12:4 Abraham enters Canaan, 75 2083

In the Bible there are some large time periods given. These enable us to do the same calculations as Ussher, without going into all the intermediate details as he did.
Golden Arches of Time

Abraham left Haran until the Exodus exactly 430 years to the day.
-( Ge 12:10, Ex 12:40, Gal 3:17)
2513

Exodus to start of Temple, 479 years
-( 1 Ki 6:1, in the 480th year or after 479 years)
2992

Start of Temple to division of the Kingdom, 37
-( Solomon reigned 40 years, 1Ki 11:42, temple started in his 4th year)
3029

Division of the Kingdom to final deportation about four years after Jerusalem fell,
390 whole years plus part of one year
(Eze 4:4-6)
Final deportation in 584 BC
3421

Hence date creation = 584 + 3421-1 = 4004 BC

Now you have a rough idea of how Ussher did his calculations.

Hoops says, in her usual throw-away style:

Second: does the Biblical record allow for an older earth and still maintain the accuracy of the genealogies? Quite possible.

Show us how it is possible, given that Adam was created in the same week as the rest of the work of creation was accomplished.

(It is of course irrelevant WHY the genealogies are there - what matters is that they are there, that you believe them to be true, and that has certain obvious mathematical consequences about the length of time that has elapsed since the creation, making it about 6,000 years.)

[_Buffalo]

You keep claiming to have superior knowledge of the Bible and how it should be interpreted, but I have yet to see a post that would help us all see the light. What exactly does the Bible say that would indicate the Earth can be older than 6 to 10 thousand years?

Hoops supposed knowledge of the Bible is pure bluff - it's almost impossible to get him to post anything beyond naked assertion.

[_DrW]

I think I should say that my post was not directed to you: you made what you thought was the best decision at the time, and how were you to know then how it would turn out? Like all of us, I too have a long list of now evidently wrong decisions that were (at the time) made with the best of intentions.

I am truly sorry if I have added to your pain about the likely-to-remain-TBM kid. But I thought that it was worth underlining the lesson from this for the benefit of any innocent bystanders that might be reading this board, and who still have time to decide differently.

Chap,

Thanks for the kind thoughts and words. I did not mean to leave the impression in my post that I was in any kind of emotional pain with regard to my children or family. I am not.

In fact, because of our shared experiences living overseas as a family, and the understanding an parenting skills of my wife, our nuclear and extended families are both remarkably close. Like most parents, I am proud of my offspring, every one of them.

Still, as mentioned, I believe that some of them have rough times ahead with regard to the Church.

And as I said, to the extent that this come to pass, I bear some responsibility.

Your caution to others who may be reading this thread at an earlier stage in their life certainly bears consideration. It helps to try to look ahead and consider the longer term ramifications of the options on the table (and then give them appropriate weight) when making the tough decisions.

[_Hoops]

You keep claiming to have superior knowledge of the Bible and how it should be interpreted, but I have yet to see a post that would help us all see the light. What exactly does the Bible say that would indicate the Earth can be older than 6 to 10 thousand years?

Really? Can cite the post where I claim superior Biblical knowledge?

Anyway, my claim is simple: buffalo has INFERIOR knowledge of the Bible to make the criticisms that he does.

[_Buffalo]

You keep claiming to have superior knowledge of the Bible and how it should be interpreted, but I have yet to see a post that would help us all see the light. What exactly does the Bible say that would indicate the Earth can be older than 6 to 10 thousand years?

Really? Can cite the post where I claim superior Biblical knowledge?

Anyway, my claim is simple: buffalo has INFERIOR knowledge of the Bible to make the criticisms that he does.

It's not even apparently that you've even read through it once, let alone have some sort of knowledge worth boasting about.

[_Some Schmo]

You keep claiming to have superior knowledge of the Bible and how it should be interpreted, but I have yet to see a post that would help us all see the light. What exactly does the Bible say that would indicate the Earth can be older than 6 to 10 thousand years?

Really? Can cite the post where I claim superior Biblical knowledge?

Anyway, my claim is simple: buffalo has INFERIOR knowledge of the Bible to make the criticisms that he does.

Wow...

OK, I've spent quite a bit of effort resisting calling a spade a spade (or in your case, calling an idiot an idiot), but that last post represents the essence of idiocy.

Look, dumb ass, if you say someone's knowledge is inferior, the implication is that yours is superior. But of course, you're an idiot, so you don't understand that.

You'd be much better off if you just stuck to masturbating to the naked Jesus poster over your bed and left the conversation to those not endowed with the intellect of a slug (like yourself).

[_Hoops]

OK, I've spent quite a bit of effort resisting calling a spade a spade (or in your case, calling an idiot an idiot), but that last post represents the essence of idiocy.

Look, dumb ass, if you say someone's knowledge is inferior, the implication is that yours is superior. But of course, you're an idiot, so you don't understand that.

You'd be much better off if you just stuck to masturbating to the naked Jesus poster over your bed and left the conversation to those not endowed with the intellect of a slug (like yourself).

On to your tippy toes so we can hear you. Now... what is it? You're mad at God 'cause he made you so small and short? That's a shame.

[_DrW]

Returning to the OP and main subject of the thread:

Yet Another Mormon Natural History ScienceWhopper

Gondwanaland: What It Means to Latter-day Saints

Here is an article from the LDS.org about Gondwanaland with even more silly anti-science natural history claims than those of Jeffrey Holland.

Now, not only do we have the continents separating with the formation of the Atlantic Basin right after a mythical global flood, we have them coming back together again after the second coming in accordance with LDS scripture.

(In other words, Joseph Smith said it so it must be true.)

Here is a sample:

“He shall command the great deep, and it shall be driven back into the north countries, and the islands shall become one land;

“And the land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place, and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.” (D&C 133:21–24.)

In 1885 the Austrian geologist Eduard Suess theorized on the existence of a supercontinent that he called Gondwanaland.

On November 3, 1831, at Hiram, Ohio, the Prophet Joseph received the above revelation with its great truth: “… and the earth shall be like as it was in the days before it was divided.”

The fact that Latter-day Saints have been informed for such a long period of time of the once supercontinent is extraordinary, but not nearly as extraordinary as is our awareness of that which is yet to come.

The Christian has the keys for such an understanding within his Bible, but few understand the full meaning—and sequence of meanings—of such biblical phrases as “a new heaven and a new earth.” Nor does the world understand and believe the numerous prophetic passages that discuss and prefigure changes in the earth. (For a start, see Isa. 40:4–5; Isa. 65:17–25.) And those Christians who still cling to a belief in an actual millennium are a dwindling number.

Note, however, the additional confirmation and information revealed through the Prophet Joseph Smith concerning some of the things that will happen to the earth: “We believe … that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.” (A of F 1:10.)

J.M. Todd has written more than a dozen articles for the Ensign. I hope that they were not all as patently silly as this one.

[_jon]

Speaking of science...here is proof that the second coming is on it's way.

These signs of the Second Coming are all around us and seem to be increasing in frequency and intensity. For example, the list of major earthquakes in The World Almanac and Book of Facts, 2004 shows twice as many earthquakes in the decades of the 1980s and 1990s as in the two preceding decades (pp. 189–90). It also shows further sharp increases in the first several years of this century. The list of notable floods and tidal waves and the list of hurricanes, typhoons, and blizzards worldwide show similar increases in recent years (pp. 188–89). Increases by comparison with 50 years ago can be dismissed as changes in reporting criteria, but the accelerating pattern of natural disasters in the last few decades is ominous.

Reference, please.

Thanks.

Dr W, does Oaks have a valid point?

[_Hoops]

Show us how it is possible, given that Adam was created in the same week as the rest of the work of creation was accomplished.

(It is of course irrelevant WHY the genealogies are there - what matters is that they are there, that you believe them to be true, and that has certain obvious mathematical consequences about the length of time that has elapsed since the creation, making it about 6,000 years.)

Sure. The genealogies can get us to Adam, but there are six days prior to that. There is a marked change of perspective from Gen 1 to Gen2:2 (i think). Particularly, this is when God begins to interact with human(s). We have the creation of time on day one. That's why it's called "the first day". That is comparative, as there were no other days before this first one. This is a literal 24 hour day from our perspective, but is not necessarily a 24 hour day from God's.

There is more about the first 5 days, particularly the first 3, that are important. Still, you get the idea. Shall I go on?