My Work Here is Done

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_why me
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _why me »

Equality wrote:
I think the apologists don't realize how many people read these boards but never post. They form judgments about the participants. There are so many who never post but who are influenced by these boards. I think, on balance, the apologists come off very badly to those who are open-minded and searching for truth.


To base one's belief on others is always a mistake. No one is perfect especially when one may be looking for perfection. People are just people after all. And who is open minded these days? Critics of the LDS church? Exmormons who post on the internet? Postmormons? NOM? I don't think so. Hard to find open mindedness on the internet when it comes to Mormonism.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _why me »

Doctor Scratch wrote:
If he's interested in defending the apologists, my recommendation is that he register immediately on the Mormon Dialogue board. Bill Hamblin is getting his ass handed to him by Mike Reed and George Miller, and he is desperately in need of support.


No one scratch can defend their religion well. Who can prove their religion to be true? Not possible. Religion is about faith and nothing more. Either one has faith in their religion or they don't. But no one can defend their faith against a critic very well. In the battle against faith and doubt, doubt usually wins since no relgion can be proven true.

I think that you understand this very well. The easiest thing in the world to do is to cast doubt toward someone who believes so that they too, can begin to doubt.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _why me »

Some Schmo wrote:He's hoping he'll gain a testimony of the truth of his BS in the process of repeatedly bearing it.


All relgion is BS if one is an atheist. And if one is a critic of catholicism, then catholicism is BS and the same would true about all critics who critique someone else's faith--that faith is BS. So what is your point?
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Some Schmo
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Some Schmo »

why me wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:He's hoping he'll gain a testimony of the truth of his BS in the process of repeatedly bearing it.


All relgion is BS if one is an atheist. And if one is a critic of catholicism, then catholicism is BS and the same would true about all critics who critique someone else's faith--that faith is BS. So what is your point?

You didn't understand my point? Hmph. I thought it was self-evident.

by the way, all religions are BS whether anyone's an atheist or not. BS is BS whether we believe it or not.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_Buffalo
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Buffalo »

Simon Belmont wrote:
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Simon,

Are those pictures of the MMM or perhaps a re-creation of the many bishops who carried out blood atonement executions or castrations in the Salt Lake Valley in the early days?


Think about it really ... thoughtfully.

Ready for your answer?

Nope. And the two or three isolated incidents of which you speak, though tragic, do not necessitate 180+ years of violence, murder, assassination, extermination orders, massacres, and endless verbal and written assaults.


Never happened. The Mormons have been far greater persecutors than they were ever persecuted. Just compare the body counts.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Buffalo
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Buffalo »

Doctor Scratch wrote:If he's interested in defending the apologists, my recommendation is that he register immediately on the Mormon Dialogue board. Bill Hamblin is getting his ass handed to him by Mike Reed and George Miller, and he is desperately in need of support.


W3rd. Hamblin is in full meltdown mode. I feel kind of embarrassed for him. :o
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Dan Vogel
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Dan Vogel »

Simon,

Apologetics was, is, and will continue to be for the indefinite future a response to 180+ years of criticism, anti-Mormonism, Violence and assassinations against the Mormons, extermination orders, hate publications and "ministries" of professional anti-Mormons, and of course Internet anti-Mormonism which resides in encouraging environments like MDB.

Nay, my brothers and sisters, it is not apologetics that are nasty; it never has been. It has been the 180+ years of vile criticism and villainy put endlessly forth against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And for what? So that a people could not, cannot, and likely will continue to not be able to practice their religion in peace [which the Constitution guarantees (unless, apparently, you ask Ed Decker, the Tanners, James White, or Scratch)].

Critics wrote the book on this behavior, and sometimes the only way to fight fire is with fire. Were it not for apologetics, critics, anti-Mormons, and tireless violence and bigotry of 180+ years would have gone uncontested. Apologetics is the answer. Apologetics is a response to critics.


I think your view of things is distorted. I understand Mormons like to view their history in this fashion, because Joseph Smith exploited the persecution narrative to unite his people and explain his failures. To be sure, the violent persecution Mormons experienced can never be justified, but it should never be confused with so-called anti-Mormon publications. It’s unrealistic to expect the world, specifically the world of Christianity, not to respond to Mormonism’s attack on their beliefs. In this respect, Mormonism is the aggressor plain and simple. The Mormon press issued a steady stream of anti-Catholic, anti-Methodist, anti-Baptist, anti-Presbyterian propaganda.

Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world, but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism. Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them. The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. Nonsense!

Apologists don’t exist to protect the church from persecution; they exist to explain problems that would crop up without anti-Mormon anyway, because the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, and Joseph Smith’s early revelations are absurd in the face of modern scholarship. This is the same reason Christian apologists exist as well.

If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program.
I do not want you to think that I am very righteous, for I am not.
Joseph Smith (History of the Church 5:401)
_DrW
_Emeritus
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _DrW »

Dan Vogel wrote:Simon,

Apologetics was, is, and will continue to be for the indefinite future a response to 180+ years of criticism, anti-Mormonism, Violence and assassinations against the Mormons, extermination orders, hate publications and "ministries" of professional anti-Mormons, and of course Internet anti-Mormonism which resides in encouraging environments like MDB.

Nay, my brothers and sisters, it is not apologetics that are nasty; it never has been. It has been the 180+ years of vile criticism and villainy put endlessly forth against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And for what? So that a people could not, cannot, and likely will continue to not be able to practice their religion in peace [which the Constitution guarantees (unless, apparently, you ask Ed Decker, the Tanners, James White, or Scratch)].

Critics wrote the book on this behavior, and sometimes the only way to fight fire is with fire. Were it not for apologetics, critics, anti-Mormons, and tireless violence and bigotry of 180+ years would have gone uncontested. Apologetics is the answer. Apologetics is a response to critics.


I think your view of things is distorted. I understand Mormons like to view their history in this fashion, because Joseph Smith exploited the persecution narrative to unite his people and explain his failures. To be sure, the violent persecution Mormons experienced can never be justified, but it should never be confused with so-called anti-Mormon publications. It’s unrealistic to expect the world, specifically the world of Christianity, not to respond to Mormonism’s attack on their beliefs. In this respect, Mormonism is the aggressor plain and simple. The Mormon press issued a steady stream of anti-Catholic, anti-Methodist, anti-Baptist, anti-Presbyterian propaganda.

Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world, but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism. Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them. The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. Nonsense!

Apologists don’t exist to protect the church from persecution; they exist to explain problems that would crop up without anti-Mormon anyway, because the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, and Joseph Smith’s early revelations are absurd in the face of modern scholarship. This is the same reason Christian apologists exist as well.

If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program.

This is a very succinct and in some ways profound statement of the situation as viewed from outside the Mormon Church.

I especially like the description of the missionary program as "culturally hostile". Having lived on the economy in several foreign countries where I could view firsthand the impact the missionaries had on many of the locals with whom they came in contact, I think "cultural hostility" is a very appropriate term.

Whether they were "baseball" or "basketball" young male converts, or "Donnie" female coverts as young women, many were enticed to join the Church for the wrong reasons, and most I knew of eventually left (sooner than later) with a sour taste in their mouth.

To hear the missionaries and local members of the Church refer to teenage female converts as "Donnies" (for Donnie Osmond) was disturbing to me, even at the time. But it did not seem to bother them.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_stemelbow
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _stemelbow »

I don't think Vogel is necessarily all that far off...that's not to say the spin he applies is all that agreeable though.

i think its weird to see LDS as uniquely or strongly into crying persecution. I don't think LDS cry persecution any more than other Christians or atheists for that matter.

"If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program."

I practice in peace anyway. I'm not sure what is meant here. As I suggest, all groups cry persecution and have their enemies if you will. To spin this as some uniquely Mormon thing is just weird.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Buffalo
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Re: My Work Here is Done

Post by _Buffalo »

stemelbow wrote:I don't think Vogel is necessarily all that far off...that's not to say the spin he applies is all that agreeable though.

i think its weird to see LDS as uniquely or strongly into crying persecution. I don't think LDS cry persecution any more than other Christians or atheists for that matter.

"If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program."

I practice in peace anyway. I'm not sure what is meant here. As I suggest, all groups cry persecution and have their enemies if you will. To spin this as some uniquely Mormon thing is just weird.


I agree that Christians like to play the martyr card too. They like to pretend that they're still being thrown to the lions.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
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