Cult is a four letter word...

[_bcspace]

What level of dissent is allowed in the LDS cult?

No one comes to your house to break your legs or make you drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

[_Cardinal Biggles]

What level of dissent is allowed in the LDS cult?

No one comes to your house to break your legs or make you drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

Or slit your throat or castrate you. Not anymore.

[_bcspace]

Or slit your throat or castrate you. Not anymore.

Never happened in this context.

[_Buffalo]

Cult is a four letter word and can also be a hate word. Hang the word cult member on somebody and you have already pegged them as lesser than you.

I enjoy reminding people of the old standard definitions of cult under which all of Christianity falls.

For quite a while, Mormonism fell under the L. Ron Hubbard/David Koresh school of cults.

[_Buffalo]

Or slit your throat or castrate you. Not anymore.

Never happened in this context.

Except when it did.

[_maklelan]

I agree, Moksha, the way words get used can cause them to become emotionally-laden in ways that their denoted definitions do not include, to the point those definitions are in fact changed with time.

Merriam-Webster defines cult this way (I've underlined those portions I think do apply to Mormonism:

1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents
4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its promulgator <health cults>
5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad
b : the object of such devotion
c : a usually small group of people characterized by such devotion

I think when Mormons bristle at the suggestion that their religion is a cult, they are focusing almost entirely on #5, and #5 c in particular. Mormonism is not a small group; it numbers in the millions.

I disagree that this is the sense of the word that annoys Latter-day Saints. This use of the word most commonly refers to small groups of people devoted to cultural phenomena, usually art, film, or literature. For instance, the Rocky Horror Picture Show has a cult following, and is often called a cult phenomenon. In reference to people it is no different. Steve Jobs had a cult following. The OED gives a more careful definition of this usage:

Designating cultural phenomena with a strong, often enduring appeal to a relatively small audience; (also) designating this appeal or audience, or any resultant success; fringe, non-mainstream. Hence: possessing a fashionable or exclusive cachet; spec. (of artistic figures or works) having a reputation or influence disproportionate to their limited public exposure or commercial success. Freq. in cult figure, cult status.

I don't think I've ever seen a Latter-day Saint interpret a critic's use of the word "cult" in this sense. Latter-day Saints are annoyed by the usage described in #3, although they're most annoyed because such a broad definition means this is the same sense in which the term is used to refer to groups like Jonestown and the Branch Davidians. That association is usually intentional, and when pressed most critics will defend it, although some few critics have explicitly made a distinction. In the case of the latter, however, I see no real value in the word. It has been completely abandoned by scholars since the "counter-cult" movement of the 70s–mid-90s collapsed. Its use today in the Christian "anti-cult" movement, is just a remnant of the earlier movement. I see no reason to try to pin some nuanced meaning on the term when the associations with its past usage are what are rhetorically valuable to the vast majority of those who use it. Ask Jeffress to substitute the phrase "New Religious Movement" in his description of Mormonism, which is what the overwhelming majority of scholars use today. He would never do that. Doesn't have near enough baggage to achieve the impact he wants. "Cult" gets to bring along quite a lot of pejorative baggage.

The Mormon religion obviously fits ##1 and2, as it is a formal religious veneration, i.e. worship, and a system of beliefs and rituals.

The context this past week that Mormonism was publicly labeled a 'cult' seems to fit the #3 definition, because Mormonism is quite unorthodox as compared to traditional Christianity in the world. The nature of god as having a physical body like man's and the godhead being three distinct and separate entities, albeit with a singular purpose, is quite unorthodox.

So it's only a cult when compared to orthodox Christianity. This usage explicitly normalizes orthodox Christianity and pushes Latter-day Saints to the margins of society. Certainly there is nothing wrong with taking issue with the notion that being an unorthodox Christian means one is less than and is grouped together with socially deviant ideological communities.

#4 seems to be an application of the word 'cult' that does not fit Mormonism.

As to #5 a (and b, for that matter), Mormons exhibit a great devotion to Joseph Smith and successor general authorities, particularly it's 'prophets'.

Christians exhibit a great devotion to Jesus Christ.

Mormons exhibit a great devotion to the Book of Mormon, the D&C and the PoGP, and the ideas contained therein.

Christians exhibit a great devotion to the Bible. This isn't the usage to which they're appealing.

So I think given the multi-faceted definition of the word, 'cult', and as Rick Perry's support applied it to Mormonism, I think it was a fair use.

I disagree entirely. Its usage was sectarian and myopic.

[_sock puppet]

#4 seems to be an application of the word 'cult' that does not fit Mormonism.

As to #5 a (and b, for that matter), Mormons exhibit a great devotion to Joseph Smith and successor general authorities, particularly it's 'prophets'.

Christians exhibit a great devotion to Jesus Christ.

I think that is precisely one of the points of mainstream Christians that refer to Mormonism as a cult. Jesus is supposedly diety, that devotion by mainstream Christians is worshipping diety. Mormons do not claim that JSJr is diety--at least not officially, they do not.

Stepping back for a moment, one of the most remarkable changes Mormonism has made since I left in 1985 is how it now longs so much for mainstream acceptance. When I was Mormon, pre-85, there were common expressions of pride that we were a 'peculiar people'. We were fortunate to be among the lucky few with 'the truth', and it was a heavy burden and obligation to take this message of truth to the rest of mankind. It distinguished us, it bound us together.

I was more surprised by the explanation for the Hinckley shuffle on Larry King Live in 1997 than by the Hinckley shuffle itself. I initially thought the Hinckley shuffle was just a deer in the headlights moment, but was astonished to hear Mormon defenders explain it as part of the PR effort to mainstream Mormonism. I don't mind the quixotic efforts to intellectualize faith, but the mopologists (and with the GAs since at least 1990) have been filing off the 'stickier points'--what we once regarded as being sacred truths, albeit making us a peculiar people, are now just shavings on the floor. My only regret is that I cannot again leave the church, this time in protest to its neutering of doctrine by a leadership that seems most interested in obtaining the esteem of the gentiles.

[_Nightlion]

What level of dissent is allowed in the LDS cult?

No one comes to your house to break your legs or make you drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

Speak your mind to defend the REAL gospel of Jesus Christ in an LDS ward and fill the chill.
Discover how impossible it then becomes to make even the most casual of friends. The shunning is robotic. That is cult-think. That is LDS.

Do they calmly seek to reclaim your misconceptions? No! This is a rarity, certainly, I mean, who knows enough to pull the trigger on the robots? But it reveals itself when threatened.

If you happen to be in need they will come over and say the obligatory [FU]...."just let us know if there is anything we can do to help." You just finished telling them that you could use help...."okay, then [FU] just let us know if there is anything we can do to help." You just reiterated that you do need help..."okay [FU] just let us know if there is anything we can do to help."

Bishop's wife gets cancer........Bishop comes over and begs us to allow him to help....okay. Wife survives. There ya go.

[_jon]

What level of dissent is allowed in the LDS cult?

No one comes to your house to break your legs or make you drink poisoned Kool-Aid.

Silent dissent is ignored, largely.
Vocal dissent is dealt with by the Church's disciplinary procedure for members - the Church Court system. Outcomes, depending on the severity of the dissent and number of people influenced, range from just a quiet word through to full excommunication for apostasy.

[_maklelan]

I think that is precisely one of the points of mainstream Christians that refer to Mormonism as a cult. Jesus is supposedly diety, that devotion by mainstream Christians is worshipping diety. Mormons do not claim that JSJr is diety--at least not officially, they do not.

I don't know what kind of diets Joseph Smith liked to promote, but if you mean deity, the definition of "cult" doesn't distinguish, which was a fact that was necessary to the point of my comment. If someone wants to argue that Mormonism is a cult because it views Joseph Smith in the same terms that Evangelicals view Jesus then they are simply and completely mistaken. If you insist on introducing that qualification where it doesn't exist (and ignoring the fact that I have already shown that definition is not the one in play here), then I would just point to the devotion shown to Peter or Paul in the early church, or to the Pope by the billions and billions of Catholics who have lived since the fourth century CE. Jeffress has already muttered that he doesn't believe Catholicism is a cult.

Stepping back for a moment,

You let me know when you're done with pet gripes and are ready to get back to the topic of the thread.