My Work Here is Done

[_Dan Vogel]

I don't think Vogel is necessarily all that far off...that's not to say the spin he applies is all that agreeable though.

i think its weird to see LDS as uniquely or strongly into crying persecution. I don't think LDS cry persecution any more than other Christians or atheists for that matter.

"If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program."

I practice in peace anyway. I'm not sure what is meant here. As I suggest, all groups cry persecution and have their enemies if you will. To spin this as some uniquely Mormon thing is just weird.

I'm merely holding up a mirror for Simon. I'm not making any universal claims.

[_stemelbow]

I'm merely holding up a mirror for Simon. I'm not making any universal claims.

Then I misread this whole paragraph of yours?

"Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world, but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism. Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them. The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. "

All I see in this paragraph is universal assertions, many of which aren't very practical.

[_Morley]

I'm merely holding up a mirror for Simon. I'm not making any universal claims.

Then I misread this whole paragraph of yours?

"Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world, but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism. Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them. The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. "

All I see in this paragraph is universal assertions, many of which aren't very practical.

Please be specific. What are the "universal assertions"?

[_stemelbow]

Please be specific. What are the "universal assertions"?

i thought he was specific enough. I guess I can outline it for you.

"Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world, but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism. Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them. The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. "

All the statements that I put in "large" sized text are the examples of universal claims I had in mind. No doubt you will quibble about that i suppose.

[_why me]

If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program.

Most christian churches have missionary programs. And you know that even if the LDS church stopped its missionary program, critics like yourself would not leave the LDS church alone. It is not in the LDS critics dna.

[_Morley]

Please be specific. What are the "universal assertions"?

i thought he was specific enough. I guess I can outline it for you.

"Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world, but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism. Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them. The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. "

All the statements that I put in "large" sized text are the examples of universal claims I had in mind. No doubt you will quibble about that i suppose.

Underlining mine.

Out of context. The paragraph begins "Some Mormons think..." That's hardly universal.

[_stemelbow]

Out of context. The paragraph begins "Some Mormons think..." That's hardly universal.

I figured you would find a way to quibble about it. "Some Mormons think" does not qualify every statement in the paragraph. he said specifically what some Mormons think and it didn't have anything to do with what he claims is the cause of the "situation", or how anti-mormons were created, or that LDS claims are somehow violent to the rest of the world, or that all Mormons cry persecution when "Christianity" fights back (whatever the means).

[_Buffalo]

Out of context. The paragraph begins "Some Mormons think..." That's hardly universal.

I figured you would find a way to quibble about it. "Some Mormons think" does not qualify every statement in the paragraph. he said specifically what some Mormons think and it didn't have anything to do with what he claims is the cause of the "situation", or how anti-Mormons were created, or that LDS claims are somehow violent to the rest of the world, or that all Mormons cry persecution when "Christianity" fights back (whatever the means).

Do you have any factual objections to his claims?

[_Morley]

Out of context. The paragraph begins "Some Mormons think..." That's hardly universal.

I figured you would find a way to quibble about it. "Some Mormons think" does not qualify every statement in the paragraph. he said specifically what some Mormons think and it didn't have anything to do with what he claims is the cause of the "situation", or how anti-Mormons were created, or that LDS claims are somehow violent to the rest of the world, or that all Mormons cry persecution when "Christianity" fights back (whatever the means).

I don't think you're reading the paragraph the way it was written.

[_Simon Belmont]

I think your view of things is distorted. I understand Mormons like to view their history in this fashion, because Joseph Smith exploited the persecution narrative to unite his people and explain his failures. To be sure, the violent persecution Mormons experienced can never be justified, but it should never be confused with so-called anti-Mormon publications. It’s unrealistic to expect the world, specifically the world of Christianity, not to respond to Mormonism’s attack on their beliefs.

The Latter-day Saints have never attacked anyone's beliefs. There are fundamental differences in the doctrines, but if there were not we would all be of one religion. You could say, and I am assuming you're referring to this, that the First Vision account attacks Christianity. Even if we grant that (which I do not, but will for the sake of this discussion). Does that one statement justify 180+ years of violence, tarring and featherings, extermination orders, massacres, assassinations, bigotry, and hatred?

In this respect, Mormonism is the aggressor plain and simple. The Mormon press issued a steady stream of anti-Catholic, anti-Methodist, anti-Baptist, anti-Presbyterian propaganda.

Show me where any member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints published anything remotely similar to the following:

• One Nation Under Gods: A History of the [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian] Church.
• Under the [pastor, preacher, minister, priest] in [state]; the national menace of a political priestcraft.
• The God Makers.
• The Maze of [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]ism .
• Reasoning from the Scriptures With the [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]s.
• [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]ism Unmasked: Confronting the Contradictions Between [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian] Beliefs and True Christianity.
• [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]ism : Shadow or Reality?
• The Word of God: Essays on [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian] Scripture.

Some Mormons think it’s a sign of being the true church to receive so much attention from the Christian world,

It absolutely is. If we were not such a threat, we'd just be ignored.

but this situation was created by the antagonistic nature of Mormonism.

What antagonistic nature? You mean being constantly driven out, killed, tortured, hated, and protested against for 180+ years?

Anti-Mormons were created by Mormons because their brand of the gospel needs them.

No, Dan. This is flatly wrong. If we "needed" hatred, we would have stayed in Missouri and not attempted to isolate ourselves in the west.

The concept of a great apostasy, the mother of harlots, apostate Christendom, and the restoration are violent and colonialistic claims to the rest of the world. When the world, specifically the Christian world, decides to fight back, the Mormons cry persecution. Nonsense!

Critical thought is one thing. There is a free market of ideas, and there should be. I am fine with respectful criticism and discussion. I am not fine when people here complain that LDS apologists are taking some small cues from the behavior which anti-Mormons wrote the book on. As if people can criticize the church, but we are not able to correct or respond to those criticisms.

Apologists don’t exist to protect the church from persecution; they exist to explain problems that would crop up without anti-Mormon anyway, because the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, and Joseph Smith’s early revelations are absurd in the face of modern scholarship. This is the same reason Christian apologists exist as well.

That is your opinion as a disaffected member. It is wrong. The perceived problems, when properly examined, are not problems in the large scheme of the work of God. Apologetics is a response to critics and anti-Mormons. It always has been.

If Mormons really want to practice their religion in peace, they need to discontinue their aggressive, culturally hostile missionary program.

Almost every religion has a missionary program, Dan.

Missionaries don't force anyone to do anything. They just share their message to those who want to hear it. If you don't, then don't invite them in. It's as simple as that. We have a right to practice our religion in peace, and to share it with those who want to share it.