Mormons - more persecutors than persecuted

[_DarkHelmet]

There is no question Mormons were persecuted for their beliefs (especially their beliefs about polygamy). I don't think that should be downplayed. However, the church's portrayal of the persecution is a little one-sided. Church members were the aggressors at times. The church never likes to talk about the Danites or the MMM, for good reason. I like to watch church movies because they only show 2 groups: The Mormons, and the drunken bearded mobs that wanted to kill all the Mormons. It seems the Mormons were always surrounded by angry mobs 24-hours a day. These movies never show the disinterested, decent non-mormons that also lived in the area.

[_stemelbow]

You're missing the point, Stem. The point is that the Germans don't get to call themselves a persecuted people.

Even if a Jew beats one of them up tomorrow. They're still not a persecuted people.

You missed my point, and as it is your comments in the OP then make no sense. You are speaking at LDS folks here--you know the ones you call names and such. In the OP you have said that not one LDS person here can think he or she is persecuted at all, unless people who aren't LDS kill more people than past and gone LDS have killed.

If a Jew beats up a German guy tomorrow for being German, then certainly that German can say he was persecuted for his nationality. The same would be true of LDS. If some dude beats up an LDS person tomorrow for being LDS then that LDS person has a right to say he was persecuted for his religious beliefs.

According to your absurd logic, somehow the living groups are the same as the predecessors. Somehow the people who live now have been attributed the sins of those who have passed. Time to re-evaluate your extreme bias against LDS, Buffalo, admit this was a pathetic attempt and go back to the drawing board devising your next move.

[_stemelbow]

There is no question Mormons were persecuted for their beliefs (especially their beliefs about polygamy). I don't think that should be downplayed. However, the church's portrayal of the persecution is a little one-sided. Church members were the aggressors at times. The church never likes to talk about the Danites or the MMM, for good reason. I like to watch church movies because they only show 2 groups: The Mormons, and the drunken bearded mobs that wanted to kill all the Mormons. It seems the Mormons were always surrounded by angry mobs 24-hours a day. These movies never show the disinterested, decent non-Mormons that also lived in the area.

Aside from your last sentence I agree. this is much sweeter than the hostility shown by Buffalo in this thread. thanks.

[_Sethbag]

I'm not sure I get what this thread is about.

Mormons don't get to call themselves persecuted because of the MMM?

What Mormons are being persecuted anyhow? Are millions of American Mormons feeling all persecuted now because some moron from Texas called their church a cult? What is this really about anyhow?

I don't think Mormons are being persecuted. Even if someone beats up a Mormon because he's a Mormon, does that mean the entire church is a "persecuted people"? By that definition every single member of any substantial group in the country is part of a persecuted group, because someone, somewhere, has done something mean to at least one of their fellow members.

Anyhow, my family and relatives who are Mormon (and I in my TBM days) are not responsible for the MMM, just like Angela Merkel is not responsible for Auschwitz.

What's this post really about?

[_maklelan]

Let's tabulate now, together. Anyone who can correct me, please do so.

The largest massacre of Mormons by the "gentiles":
Haun's Mill massacre - 19 deaths

If you count all the Mormon wars, maybe 30 Mormon deaths or so, including the Haun's Mill victims?

The largest massacre of "gentiles" by Mormons:
Mountain Meadows Massacre - 100-140 deaths

So you mean actual human deaths? A simple majority unilaterally indicates who is being persecuted and who is persecutor? Ok. You estimate that besides the Haun's Mill Massacre around a total of 11 Latter-day Saints have been killed as a direct result of their Mormonism from 1830 until today?

[_Buffalo]

You missed my point, and as it is your comments in the OP then make no sense. You are speaking at LDS folks here--you know the ones you call names and such. In the OP you have said that not one LDS person here can think he or she is persecuted at all, unless people who aren't LDS kill more people than past and gone LDS have killed.

If a Jew beats up a German guy tomorrow for being German, then certainly that German can say he was persecuted for his nationality. The same would be true of LDS. If some dude beats up an LDS person tomorrow for being LDS then that LDS person has a right to say he was persecuted for his religious beliefs.

According to your absurd logic, somehow the living groups are the same as the predecessors. Somehow the people who live now have been attributed the sins of those who have passed. Time to re-evaluate your extreme bias against LDS, Buffalo, admit this was a pathetic attempt and go back to the drawing board devising your next move.

By that logic, every group on earth is "persecuted." Kind of makes the word "persecuted" kind of meaningless, doesn't it, Stem?

[_Buffalo]

Let's tabulate now, together. Anyone who can correct me, please do so.

The largest massacre of Mormons by the "gentiles":
Haun's Mill massacre - 19 deaths

If you count all the Mormon wars, maybe 30 Mormon deaths or so, including the Haun's Mill victims?

The largest massacre of "gentiles" by Mormons:
Mountain Meadows Massacre - 100-140 deaths

So you mean actual human deaths? A simple majority unilaterally indicates who is being persecuted and who is persecutor? Ok. You estimate that besides the Haun's Mill Massacre around a total of 11 Latter-day Saints have been killed as a direct result of their Mormonism from 1830 until today?

It's probably a few more than the 11 plus the Haun's mill victims. I'm sure there were a few other isolated incidents on both sides.

And how do we tabulated blood atonement and the killing of apostates? Mormons killing Mormons.

In any case, you'd be hard pressed not to conclude that Mormons have historically been far more violent against their neighbors than vice versa. And yes, that means they don't get to call themselves a persecuted people. If MMM had never happened, then it would be different.

Think of the Catholics. Before they had any power, they were indeed a persecuted people. But after the Spanish Inquisition and the Crusades and all that, they kind of lost the right to call themselves persecuted, you know?

[_stemelbow]

By that logic, every group on earth is "persecuted." Kind of makes the word "persecuted" kind of meaningless, doesn't it, Stem?

That wasn't by that logic at all Buffalo. You were saying a Mormon doesn't get to claim any persecution at all (no matter the circumstance, with the exception of if it turns out more Mormons are killed than what was killed at MMM) because some Mormons 160 years ago killed some non-mormons. Now you wish to spin that to suggest whole groups can claim to be "persecuted groups" because a person in that group has received persecution. That's just silly thinking if you ask me. as I said, time to go back to that drawing board and devising a new mode of attack.

[_stemelbow]

In any case, you'd be hard pressed not to conclude that Mormons have historically been far more violent against their neighbors than vice versa. And yes, that means they don't get to call themselves a persecuted people. If MMM had never happened, then it would be different.

Oh brother, so because a relatively few Mormons killed people 160 years ago that means people like Joseph Smith's twins who died as a result of being exposed when Joseph Smith was attacked in Ohio, tarred and feathered, don't get to be considered a persecuted two? Or that Joseph Smith can't be considered persecuted for his beliefs for being tarred and feathered because people after his death who called themselves Mormons, perhaps, killed a bundle of innocent people?

My goodness, Buffalo, the lanks you will go in order to complain about Mormons or Mormonism...

[_Buffalo]

By that logic, every group on earth is "persecuted." Kind of makes the word "persecuted" kind of meaningless, doesn't it, Stem?

That wasn't by that logic at all Buffalo. You were saying a Mormon doesn't get to claim any persecution at all (no matter the circumstance, with the exception of if it turns out more Mormons are killed than what was killed at MMM) because some Mormons 160 years ago killed some non-Mormons. Now you wish to spin that to suggest whole groups can claim to be "persecuted groups" because a person in that group has received persecution. That's just silly thinking if you ask me. as I said, time to go back to that drawing board and devising a new mode of attack.

As usual, stem, you prevaricate until terms become meaningless. "Persecuted" means something - and that something isn't a powerful, violent group that occasionally gets a little bit of taunting.