ScienceWhopper:Natural History According to Jeffrey Holland

[_Franktalk]

As you and Hoops continue referring to scripture as the basis of your knowledge, understanding and worldview, I note that you never mention the Koran, for example.

Given that you claim to depend on the revealed word of the God of Abraham for your decision making, could you or Hoops provide some logical explanation as to why you ignore the Koran as revealed word of the God of Abraham?

The Koran certainly has a more legitimate claim in terms of time and place to be the revealed word of God than does the Book of Mormon, for example.

Actually that is not the way it works. It seems to me that you treat the Bible and any other religious book as a book of information. Like a geology book or a physics book. Something to pick and choose what you feel is true based on some form of logic. As long as you view scripture this way it will never reveal its secrets to you.

We are spirits placed in this body on the earth. Our memory of what we were before this is hidden from us. This is spiritual blindness. We live on the earth surrounded by good and evil spirits we can't see due to this same blindness. In this cess pool we are to learn that we should look beyond this world and seek another. We are given some help to do this. We are given a moral compass which tells us right from wrong. Of course by our free will we can suppress this moral compass. If we see past the creation we realize that a power we call God made all of this. Then as a child we develop a love for our parent. This love of God is unconditional just like love from a child to a parent. This leads to seeking that power or God. Reading various religious books or hearing doctrine will cause a witness of the Holy Ghost when you experience a true message from God. The message of the Bible is incomplete and has errors but it is a starting place for the knowledge of God. Many people stumble at this point. They get so wrapped up in scripture they forget the seeking of God and instead fall in love with the message. Others who are not guided by the spirit will see the Bible as just words on a page. But if you get to the point where you have the gospel witnessed to you then you can have a relationship with God. It is personal and it is the goal that we have been placed on the earth to achieve. I have had many things witnessed by the Holy Spirit the Koran is not one of them.

[_DrW]

Franktalk and Hoops,

Michael Persinger is a colleague who still works in the area of bioelectromagnetics, a field I left in the late 1990's. Folks who have worked long in this area of research are aware that properly applied electromagnetic fields can have profound effects on human perception. For example, exposure to specifically designed electromagnetic fields can give humans the sensation that their skin in being severely burned by coupling to and stimulating specific nerve receptors near the surface of the skin. Not even the toughest trained soldiers are able to stay in this field for more than a 15 or 20 seconds. Of course, exposure such causes no actual burn damage to the skin. By coupling to and stimulating other components of the neurological system, other false perceptions can be induced as can a number of adverse biological reactions.

In terms of false perceptions, Dr. Persinger has shown that selective magnetic stimulation of the brain can give rise to religious experiences or perceptions that religionists describe as transcendent, oneness with God and the universe, and the clear presence of another, otherwise undetectable, being.

Skeptics and atheists report similar experiences or perceptions when undergoing this kind of magnetic stimulation. Persinger's device has been dubbed the God Helmet.

Since this device can induce, at will, perceptions indistinguishable from religious experiences reported by religionists as "the presence of God" or the presence of the Holy Spirit, how can you claim that such perceptions come from God?

The question becomes even more problematic when one considers that so-called deeply religious experiences such as visions and oneness with God can also be induced by drugs, or even the occasional production and release of endogenous compounds in the brain such as DMT.

Do you not see this as a problem for claim that confirmation of truth comes exclusively from God or the Holy Ghost?

[_Sethbag]

DrW, the answer to the problems you pose is simple, and maddening to anyone with two brain cells to rub together: you're right, all of those things can be induced by magnetic fields, drugs, etc. But the real Spirit is different, and once you've felt it, you just know.

Of course, that doesn't explain why all those people from all the non-true religions in the world who believe they've felt the real Spirit and "just know", are wrong, but the person you're talking to can know that they don't fall into this same camp.

[_DrW]

DrW, the answer to the problems you pose is simple, and maddening to anyone with two brain cells to rub together: you're right, all of those things can be induced by magnetic fields, drugs, etc. But the real Spirit is different, and once you've felt it, you just know.

Of course, that doesn't explain why all those people from all the non-true religions in the world who believe they've felt the real Spirit and "just know", are wrong, but the person you're talking to can know that they don't fall into this same camp.

Thanks, Sethbag.

You have provided a clear and concise explanation that even a arrogant, scientistic dogmatist like myself can understand.

It would appear, then, that there is no hope for the deeply religious. By their own admission, they cannot all be right. Each religionist will claim that theirs is the only true religion. This feature of religion as a whole completely discredits all of it.

[_huckelberry]

Next time I feel religious I will check and see if I am wearing a metal eloctromagnetic helmet.

I will also remember the phrase, varieties of religious experience, so not to imaginge that all such things are the same.

It is also, at least to my mind, worth considering that God is not providing a true false test.

Most importantly for my Christian view would be to remember that a couple thousand years of Christian experience often speaks caution about feelings of unity oneness transport and visions as uncertain and peripheral forms of religious experience.

[_Hoops]

Hoops,

Since this device can induce, at will, perceptions indistinguishable from religious experiences reported by religionists as "the presence of God" or the presence of the Holy Spirit, how can you claim that such perceptions come from God?

I don't know anything about these devices nor what they can allegedly induce. Nor how one would conduct such an experiment. Nonetheless, when have I ever, ever said or written anything that could be possible construed to mean that I rely on these "perceptions." I'll make it easy for you. I haven't. In fact, I've stated just the opposite. So, again, what does this have to do with anything?

The question becomes even more problematic when one considers that so-called deeply religious experiences such as visions and oneness with God can also be induced by drugs, or even the occasional production and release of endogenous compounds in the brain such as DMT.

You mean God communicate with us by simply flipping a switch in our brains and releasing these compounds? God is amazing, isn't He?

Do you not see this as a problem for claim that confirmation of truth comes exclusively from God or the Holy Ghost?

No, I don't. For the simple reason that, and you of all people should know this, God has made Himself known in a lot of ways. His creation, the laws that govern the universe, His Word, charity, love, selflessness, or how about just LIFE! Doesn't it say something about God that you and I can talk to each other, share ideas, occasionally frustrate each other... in short, participate in LIFE?

[_Some Schmo]

She is to making Sarah Palin look sane and even reasonably well grounded by comparison.

Sorry, but nobody can do that, not even Bachmann.

[_Hoops]

You have provided a clear and concise explanation that even a arrogant, scientistic dogmatist like myself can understand.

It would appear, then, that there is no hope for the deeply religious. By their own admission, they cannot all be right. Each religionist will claim that theirs is the only true religion. This feature of religion as a whole completely discredits all of it.

False. There are lots of inclusive religions. Actually, the ONLY exclusive religion is Christianity (and not Mormonism). so once again, you're wrong.

[_Franktalk]

Franktalk and Hoops,

Michael Persinger is a colleague who still works in the area of bioelectromagnetics, a field I left in the late 1990's. Folks who have worked long in this area of research are aware that properly applied electromagnetic fields can have profound effects on human perception. For example, exposure to specifically designed electromagnetic fields can give humans the sensation that their skin in being severely burned by coupling to and stimulating specific nerve receptors near the surface of the skin. Not even the toughest trained soldiers are able to stay in this field for more than a 15 or 20 seconds. Of course, exposure such causes no actual burn damage to the skin. By coupling to and stimulating other components of the neurological system, other false perceptions can be induced as can a number of adverse biological reactions.

In terms of false perceptions, Dr. Persinger has shown that selective magnetic stimulation of the brain can give rise to religious experiences or perceptions that religionists describe as transcendent, oneness with God and the universe, and the clear presence of another, otherwise undetectable, being.

Skeptics and atheists report similar experiences or perceptions when undergoing this kind of magnetic stimulation. Persinger's device has been dubbed the God Helmet.

Since this device can induce, at will, perceptions indistinguishable from religious experiences reported by religionists as "the presence of God" or the presence of the Holy Spirit, how can you claim that such perceptions come from God?

The question becomes even more problematic when one considers that so-called deeply religious experiences such as visions and oneness with God can also be induced by drugs, or even the occasional production and release of endogenous compounds in the brain such as DMT.

Do you not see this as a problem for claim that confirmation of truth comes exclusively from God or the Holy Ghost?

This is a great question. I of course don't have concrete answers for you on this subject. But I can share some opinions. First of all I have never worn one of these helmets yet I have experienced many spiritual things. I am not a drug addict and have not ever had a drug induced vision. I would love to experience the helmet test to see if it has any relationship to my experiences. I am not afraid of technology in this direction. I can tell you that the helmet does not open a doorway to God. I am sure at best it supplies some weird experience in the brain that has been interpreted in the manner you describe.

The mystery of God does not end until we are mostly through the Great Tribulation period so no this can't be proof or a doorway. I think what you are saying is that spiritual experiences can be simulated by man. I doubt that but I have not experienced both so I can't say how close they are to each other. I will tell you that most Christians in my opinion have not experienced the Holy Spirit as a witness in any strong way. This is because most love the world and the Spirit will not converse with the world but only the spirit. Spiritual discernment is the only path to a strong relationship. Many love scripture but they don't love God. In this they stumble and do not experience spiritual communication. So this helmet will lead many away but they are on shallow ground already. Having said that I also know people who would die for Christ yet have never experienced a spiritual moment. These are true elect. I have often wondered why the Holy Spirit knocked me up side of the head to get me on this path. Am I weak? I have often asked that question.

One view of this reality is just electric fields interacting with each other. We classify different fields due to their effect on our senses. So a direct injection of signals into the brain must be quite the trip. I will have to tell you I would have to know these people who were considered religious in this test before I would accept that they are spiritual.

I did read the wiki on the God helmet. It seems that it has not been duplicated. That has led some to believe the experiences are mostly suggestive. But I have no doubts that electric / magnetic signals injected into the brain will cause an experience.

[_DrW]

You have provided a clear and concise explanation that even a arrogant, scientistic dogmatist like myself can understand.

It would appear, then, that there is no hope for the deeply religious. By their own admission, they cannot all be right. Each religionist will claim that theirs is the only true religion. This feature of religion as a whole completely discredits all of it.

False. There are lots of inclusive religions. Actually, the ONLY exclusive religion is Christianity (and not Mormonism). so once again, you're wrong.

Okay. I agree with you. I should have specifically said "Abrahamic religions" instead of simply "religions".

Abrahamic religions are the ones we have been considering and I think you would agree that Christians think Muslims are wrong and Jews think Muslims are wrong. Muslims overtly hate Jews in most parts of the world and are not too fond of Christians dating back to the Crusades. I have personally heard a GA of the LDS Church say that Jews represent the Anti-Christ, so no great amount of understanding evident between Jews and Mormons. Christians think Jews are wrong and blame them for killing Jesus.

All in all, quite a mess actually.