Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
Good question, Jon. A lot of issues like the "horse" discussion really come down to our assumptions about the translation process. And witness statements about words appearing in the seer stone have caused different assumptions about what it means for that process. Some LDS scholars suppose, as you do, that words appearing in the seer stone indicate a process where God is simply feeding the translation in English to Joseph and that Joseph merely reads what he sees, much like someone would just read a ticker tape sign as the words scroll by. Other LDS scholars feel that Joseph was given to understand the meaning of the words on the plates through divine means. This theory usually argues that whatever appeared in the seer stone functioned similarly to how seer stones worked in other situations, with the seer having some influence on what he saw. (E.g., someone would ask the seer to find a lost object, and the seer would desire to see that object in the stone.) Under this theory, Joseph assisted in the translation process and the stone acted as a sort of graphic output crutch for developing faith in his own spiritual powers until possibly later when he was able to carry out the process without the aid of the seer stone.
Of course, these aren't the only two possibilities--there is a continuum of belief on this subject--but it works as a short summary. I lean toward the latter interpretation, that Joseph had more of a role in the translation process than simply reading what was shown him in the stone.
Cheers
Of course, these aren't the only two possibilities--there is a continuum of belief on this subject--but it works as a short summary. I lean toward the latter interpretation, that Joseph had more of a role in the translation process than simply reading what was shown him in the stone.
Cheers
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
Joseph had more of a role in the translation process than simply reading what was shown him in the stone.
On this, it seems, critics and some believers can agree. I don't think any critic believes that words actually appeared on the seer stone in the hat, which means that, indeed, Joseph Smith had more of a role in the translation process than reading words allegedly supernaturally placed on a stone in a hat by God.
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
True, Equality.
This could give rise to the iStone theory. Maybe Uncle Dale could place Jobs' great, great grandfather in New England at the right time.
Cheers.
Equality wrote:that words actually appeared on the seer stone in the hat
This could give rise to the iStone theory. Maybe Uncle Dale could place Jobs' great, great grandfather in New England at the right time.
Cheers.
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
I think that the "true" method of the production of the Book of Mormon is unknown to us, and the head-in-the-hat thing with the magic rock was just a distraction, something for people to pay attention to so they wouldn't notice what was really going on behind the scenes.
Consider the D&C 9 verses about the translation. I read this over and over, and it never, ever made much sense to me, in light of the other circumstances of translation.
This sounds fine at first. You know how we LDS teach people about prayer, and the spirit, and all. But think about this for a moment. If you assume that Joseph Smith was actually looking at Egyptian characters scribed into gold leaves, how is this method of "translation" supposed to work?

Ok, so assume that Joseph Smith is looking at something like this. The D&C 9 method says that he has to figure it out, and when he has the right answer, God will confirm that it is right. If he has the wrong answer, God will give him a stupor of thought and he'll forget the wrong answer.
So, what scenario can you imagine to yourself where Joseph Smith is staring at characters etched in gold, like these ones above, and comes up with "I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore..." Remember, in D&C 9 God is not giving it to the translator. The translator is having to figure it out in his mind, and God is then confirming that he's got it right.
This whole D&C 9 thing about translating the Golden Plates never made any sense to me, even as a TBM. I thought it out too much, and expected things ultimately to make sense, and it never did.
This only gets worse once you learn that for a lot of the time Joseph was "translating" the plates, he didn't even have them in his possession, and they were supposedly hidden out in the woods somewhere. How is he supposed to "work out in his mind" what the translation should be if he didn't even have the plates at all? In this case, "working out in his mind" sounds an awful lot like "just think about it and make it up".
Then it gets even worse when you add in the head-in-the-hat/magic-rock eyewitness descriptions.
How does Joseph sticking his face into his hat and staring at his magic rock look anything like the method described in D&C 9?
Pardon me if I conclude that the various explanations we've been given for the "translation" of the Book of Mormon sound like hogwash to me. The bits and pieces we've been given as explanations simply don't fit together. None of it makes any sense.
Which brings me back to the idea that the hat/rock thing, the D&C 9 thing, it's all just for show. It's all just props, and the real production of the Book of Mormon was proceeding along some completely different path.
Consider the D&C 9 verses about the translation. I read this over and over, and it never, ever made much sense to me, in light of the other circumstances of translation.
Joseph Smith channeling God wrote:8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must study it out in your mind; then you must ask me if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right.
9 But if it be not right you shall have no such feelings, but you shall have a stupor of thought that shall cause you to forget the thing which is wrong; therefore, you cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.
This sounds fine at first. You know how we LDS teach people about prayer, and the spirit, and all. But think about this for a moment. If you assume that Joseph Smith was actually looking at Egyptian characters scribed into gold leaves, how is this method of "translation" supposed to work?

Ok, so assume that Joseph Smith is looking at something like this. The D&C 9 method says that he has to figure it out, and when he has the right answer, God will confirm that it is right. If he has the wrong answer, God will give him a stupor of thought and he'll forget the wrong answer.
So, what scenario can you imagine to yourself where Joseph Smith is staring at characters etched in gold, like these ones above, and comes up with "I, Nephi, having been born of goodly parents, therefore..." Remember, in D&C 9 God is not giving it to the translator. The translator is having to figure it out in his mind, and God is then confirming that he's got it right.
This whole D&C 9 thing about translating the Golden Plates never made any sense to me, even as a TBM. I thought it out too much, and expected things ultimately to make sense, and it never did.
This only gets worse once you learn that for a lot of the time Joseph was "translating" the plates, he didn't even have them in his possession, and they were supposedly hidden out in the woods somewhere. How is he supposed to "work out in his mind" what the translation should be if he didn't even have the plates at all? In this case, "working out in his mind" sounds an awful lot like "just think about it and make it up".
Then it gets even worse when you add in the head-in-the-hat/magic-rock eyewitness descriptions.
How does Joseph sticking his face into his hat and staring at his magic rock look anything like the method described in D&C 9?
Pardon me if I conclude that the various explanations we've been given for the "translation" of the Book of Mormon sound like hogwash to me. The bits and pieces we've been given as explanations simply don't fit together. None of it makes any sense.
Which brings me back to the idea that the hat/rock thing, the D&C 9 thing, it's all just for show. It's all just props, and the real production of the Book of Mormon was proceeding along some completely different path.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
J Green wrote:This could give rise to the iStone theory.
I doubt it. No Flash support with iStones.
KA
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
KimberlyAnn wrote:J Green wrote:This could give rise to the iStone theory.
I doubt it. No Flash support with iStones.
KA
LOL!
This, or any other post that I have made or will make in the future, is strictly my own opinion and consequently of little or no value.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
"Faith is believing something you know ain't true" Twain.
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
KimberlyAnn wrote:J Green wrote:This could give rise to the iStone theory.
I doubt it. No Flash support with iStones.
KA
Nice! So that leaves Honeycomb?
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
Seth,
Thanks for the discussion. SP asks why people post on these topics. This is one of the reasons I do--to reason through assumptions we all have and get reaction from all angles. I like hearing different perspectives, and I hope you don't mind hearing how at least one believer makes assumptionsn on certain issues.
I've always considered the D&C passage you bring up to refer to a time after the Spirit has enlighted Joseph as to the meaning of the words on the plates. To me the passage doesn't make sense if this hasn't occured. As you point out (as did Cinepro on the other board using Japanese as the example), it doesn't make much sense to study something in your mind if you don't even understand the language in which it is written. Likewise the passage doesn't make much sense to me if Joseph is simply reading words that scroll by in the iStone. On the other hand, I have several decades of professional experience in understanding basic meaning components in other languages and then struggling to articulate those meanings in English words. And to me, the D&C passage fits this context--Joseph is spiritually given to understand the meaning and then is asked to formulate his attempted translation in his mind and then seek a spiritual comfirmation about his attempt at articulating the meaning in English.
As for how the translation was related to the actual physical plates, I differ somewhat from others on this issue. Many disassociate Joseph from the plates because Joseph was physically separated from them during the translation process--they were mostly under a cloth on the table in the same room. (Or in a trunk in the same room.) So many tend to say that the process wasn't dependant on the characters or the text. Hard to be sure about anything here, but I possibly disagree. When Joseph started translating (116 pages) he placed the U&T over a copy of the characters he had taken from the plates. There was a direct correlation to the characters. And when he started using the seer stone, some of the same witnesses who talk about seeing words in English in the stone also talk about Joseph seeing characters from the plates in the stone. So, still a direct correlation to the characters? Possilbly. There could be a scenario where Joseph is seeing the actual text from the plates from which the translation is derived, just as he also projects an image of the translation he has studied out (D&C 9) into the stone. Additionally, there were long breaks where he could possibly have been playing Angry Birds Palmyra, except when Emma came into the room to clean, and then it was back to business.
Of course, this from a believer's perspective. I understand the view from your angle is different, Seth.
Cheers.
Thanks for the discussion. SP asks why people post on these topics. This is one of the reasons I do--to reason through assumptions we all have and get reaction from all angles. I like hearing different perspectives, and I hope you don't mind hearing how at least one believer makes assumptionsn on certain issues.
I've always considered the D&C passage you bring up to refer to a time after the Spirit has enlighted Joseph as to the meaning of the words on the plates. To me the passage doesn't make sense if this hasn't occured. As you point out (as did Cinepro on the other board using Japanese as the example), it doesn't make much sense to study something in your mind if you don't even understand the language in which it is written. Likewise the passage doesn't make much sense to me if Joseph is simply reading words that scroll by in the iStone. On the other hand, I have several decades of professional experience in understanding basic meaning components in other languages and then struggling to articulate those meanings in English words. And to me, the D&C passage fits this context--Joseph is spiritually given to understand the meaning and then is asked to formulate his attempted translation in his mind and then seek a spiritual comfirmation about his attempt at articulating the meaning in English.
As for how the translation was related to the actual physical plates, I differ somewhat from others on this issue. Many disassociate Joseph from the plates because Joseph was physically separated from them during the translation process--they were mostly under a cloth on the table in the same room. (Or in a trunk in the same room.) So many tend to say that the process wasn't dependant on the characters or the text. Hard to be sure about anything here, but I possibly disagree. When Joseph started translating (116 pages) he placed the U&T over a copy of the characters he had taken from the plates. There was a direct correlation to the characters. And when he started using the seer stone, some of the same witnesses who talk about seeing words in English in the stone also talk about Joseph seeing characters from the plates in the stone. So, still a direct correlation to the characters? Possilbly. There could be a scenario where Joseph is seeing the actual text from the plates from which the translation is derived, just as he also projects an image of the translation he has studied out (D&C 9) into the stone. Additionally, there were long breaks where he could possibly have been playing Angry Birds Palmyra, except when Emma came into the room to clean, and then it was back to business.
Of course, this from a believer's perspective. I understand the view from your angle is different, Seth.
Cheers.
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
J Green wrote:Nice! So that leaves Honeycomb?
Vulnerable to attack from hackers and dark forces.
"Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil." An Android Stone could have easily been a conduit of demonic revelation. Too risky. Ed Decker would be all over a HoneyStone theory like white on rice.
KA
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Re: Cinepro Schools MAD on the "Horse-Tapir" Issue
Wasn't there a D&C passage about three grand keys for testing Android spirits? Hopefully they are encrypted keys!
Cheers.
Cheers.
". . . but they must long feel that to flatter and follow others, without being flattered and followed in turn, is but a state of half enjoyment" - Jane Austen in "Persuasion"