Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

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_asbestosman
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _asbestosman »

Hoops wrote:Ah, I see. Just another angry liberal. So predictable.


1) That really doesn't have anything to do with my thoughts in response to the Dude.
a) In any case, my thoughts about taxes are more nuanced than a simple "tax the rich." In fact I think such a thing is wrong for various reasons. If you want to discussion with me on tax policy, I'll be happy to start a thread (just say the word), or you may do so.
b) If you want to reply to my thoughts on obeying or disobeying rules, please feel free. In fact, I'd actually be more interested if you'd reply to The Dude's thoughts directly.

2) Still waiting for clarification on the difference between Rosa Parks and this homosexual soldier.
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_Hoops
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »


I don't see anything wrong with breaking unfair rules. Having sex at BYU. Smoking marijuana at a party. Keeping homosexuality a secret so you can serve your country (or just keep your job). Breaking unfair rules is part of changing the rules for the better.

If you knowingly volunteer to be a part of a group, then you volunteer to live by their rules. We have mechanisms to change rules and, for the most part, it works reasonably well i think. Where it's difficult, most often, it should be difficult. Where it's easy, well, then so much the better.
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »

1) That really doesn't have anything to do with my thoughts in response to the Dude.
a) In any case, my thoughts about taxes are more nuanced than a simple "tax the rich." In fact I think such a thing is wrong for various reasons. If you want to discussion with me on tax policy, I'll be happy to start a thread (just say the word), or you may do so.
Good. They should be.

b) If you want to reply to my thoughts on obeying or disobeying rules, please feel free. In fact, I'd actually be more interested if you'd reply to The Dude's thoughts directly.
I have.

2) Still waiting for clarification on the difference between Rosa Parks and this homosexual soldier.
One is about behavior, something which we discriminat on all the time. Constantly in fact. The other is about race.
_asbestosman
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _asbestosman »

Hoops wrote:One is about behavior, something which we discriminat on all the time. Constantly in fact. The other is about race.

Okay. So do you see any difference between discriminating against homosexuals and discriminating against Christians?

Do you find a meaningful distinction between homosexual actions and same gender attraction?

If you find it permissible to discriminate on the basis of behavior, is it okay to discriminate against those who support an opposing political agenda, or people who choose to shop at thrift stores?

Finally, how far can the discrimination go in each case? Does it depend on what's being discriminated against?
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_Hoops
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »

I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. But I'm game.


Okay. So do you see any difference between discriminating against homosexuals and discriminating against Christians?
Sure. The constitution.

Do you find a meaningful distinction between homosexual actions and same gender attraction?
Sure. But both are none of my business. And none of your business. And none of the government's business.


If you find it permissible to discriminate on the basis of behavior,
Everyone does. Even you.

is it okay to discriminate against those who support an opposing political agenda, or people who choose to shop at thrift stores?
Really. Silly question.

Finally, how far can the discrimination go in each case? Does it depend on what's being discriminated against?
I don't know. I suppose it depends on the constitution and the laws we have established.
_Brackite
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Brackite »

I do agree with President Barack Obama signing into law to allow gays to serve openly in the Military. However, the issue of Homosexuality is Not the only issue with this 2012 Presidential Campaign coming up.
Governor Rick Perry's Evangelical Christianity, and Mitt Romney's Mormonism is really not going to be an issue for me.
I would vote for either Governor Rick Perry or Mitt Romney regardless of their Religion over President Barack Obama.
President Barack Obama Promised hope and change.
When President Barack Obama first entered office, the National average price for gasoline was about $2.00 a gallon. The average price for gasoline is now at about $3.40 a gallon. The average price for gasoline in California is now at about $3.80 a gallon. High gas prices hurts mostly the Low-income earning People. When the stimulus Package was passed by the House and the Senate and signed into law by President Barack Obama back in February of 2009, the National Unemployment rate was at 8.2%. Now the National Unemployment rate is at 9.1%. The State of California overwhelmingly voted for Barack Obama for President back in November of 2008. When the stimulus Package was passed by the House and the Senate and signed into law by President Barack Obama back in February of 2009, California's unemployment rate was at 10.5%. Now California's unemployment rate is as high as 12.1%.
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_EAllusion
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _EAllusion »

Gasoline was at $2.00 a gallon when Obama took over because there was a catastrophic collapse in the world economy that drastically reduced demand for oil. As economic conditions have improved and oil suppliers have adjusted to prevailing trends, the cost has increased. There are many, many reasons one might take issue with the Obama presidency, but failing to keep oil prices at incredibly low levels shouldn't be one of them. That's confusing correlation with causation in a pretty severe way.
_asbestosman
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _asbestosman »

Hoops wrote:
Do you find a meaningful distinction between homosexual actions and same gender attraction?
Sure. But both are none of my business. And none of your business. And none of the government's business.

Then there's not really much to discuss. If it's none of the government's business, then it has no business discriminating against it once it is known.

Don't ask, don't tell was insufficient because the government shouldn't be able to discriminate on the basis of sexual preference. If there's no significant difference between behavior and in-born qualities for the case of sexual preference, then by your distinction of behavior as differentiating discriminating through racism (towards Rosa Parks) vs homosexuality (the gay soldier) was a red herring.

The political agenda of having a gay soldier condemn that rule then becomes understandable--perhaps even laudable--as it was for Rosa Parks.

If you find it permissible to discriminate on the basis of behavior,
Everyone does. Even you.

Indeed. But I find that how I discriminate depends on what I'm discriminating against. That's what I was getting at with my silly questions. Discrimination that I have: who I spend my free time with. Discrimination I did not engage in (when I had a job at McDonald's as a teenager): only serving hamburgers to people I liked.

Actually I should be more careful here. There is a danger in equivocating on the word "discriminate". Usually in the context of racism it means something stronger than simply treating people differently based on certain characteristics. It has a strong negative meaning associated with it because of the history of things like racism including violence or unfairly and unjustly denying opportunities and services to others.
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_Hoops
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »

Then there's not really much to discuss. If it's none of the government's business, then it has no business discriminating against it once it is known.
Never said it did. You were so anxious to paint me with your broad brush that you just assumed that I would have some problem with gays in the military, the supermarket, or the governor's office. I could not possibly care less. What is offensive is that liberals are often the one's to introduce sexual preference and race into the discussions.

Don't ask, don't tell was insufficient because the government shouldn't be able to discriminate on the basis of sexual preference.
Then take it up with Clinton and the democrats. It's their policy.

If there's no significant difference between behavior and in-born qualities for the case of sexual preference, then by your distinction of behavior as differentiating discriminating through racism (towards Rosa Parks) vs homosexuality (the gay soldier) was a red herring.
I don't know what you're writing here.

The political agenda of having a gay soldier condemn that rule then becomes understandable--perhaps even laudable--as it was for Rosa Parks.
No it doesn't. He's inciting others to label them as intolerant. He's the one that calls attention to his behavior, he's making the grandstand play, he's the one that introduced sexual preference into the discussion. Granted, it was at a candidate's forum, so that's fair play. However, dadt was just rescinded, what more does he want?



Indeed. But I find that how I discriminate depends on what I'm discriminating against.
of course. so the catch-all word doesn't really apply - "discrimination".



Actually I should be more careful here. There is a danger in equivocating on the word "discriminate". Usually in the context of racism it means something stronger than simply treating people differently based on certain characteristics.
Yes it does. Which is why when liberals toss it into the discussion so easily, it loses its meaning.

It has a strong negative meaning associated with it because of the history of things like racism including violence or unfairly and unjustly denying opportunities and services to others.
And a further complication is that there is no finish line. How long will history influence policy decisions for today? Exactly what needs to be done in your opinion? I don't know how to label myself (i'm sure our humanist/atheist/agnostic liberal friends on this board will come up with something), but, frankly, on a societal scale i couldn't care less who is gay, what race one's parents are, what socio-economic background one comes from, or anything else that is irrelevant. I'm sure in liberalville not caring means I actually care a great deal and am ready to bludgeon gays with my Bible, and slam the doors on blacks if they ever try to enter my protestant church. Words tend to have very little meaning.
_asbestosman
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _asbestosman »

Hoops, I may have made incorrect assumptions about why you have a problem with the gay soldier. I'm not anxiously trying to paint you with anything. To be fair, I would find your comment that sparked it off misleading if indeed you agree that the government shouldn't discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation even if it has been voluntarily disclosed. Your statement was:
The military, until recently, had a ban on gays (rightly or wrongly) yet the gay soldiers knowingly violated that rule, presumably to promote some agenda.

Your comment appears to reflect negatively on the gay soldier--that he violated a rule and probably had an agenda. My response was about why there may be a good reason for breaking certain rules. Now it sounds like he may not have broken any rules in the first place and that the problem you have was simply that he presumably had an agenda.

If I didn't know better, I'd almost think you're being a bit disingenuous.

Hoops wrote:No it doesn't. He's inciting others to label them as intolerant. He's the one that calls attention to his behavior, he's making the grandstand play, he's the one that introduced sexual preference into the discussion. Granted, it was at a candidate's forum, so that's fair play. However, dadt was just rescinded, what more does he want?

For people to be happy it was repealed because it was a stupid law?

And a further complication is that there is no finish line. How long will history influence policy decisions for today?

Good question. I asked something similar here myself.

Exactly what needs to be done in your opinion?

In this situation--where DADT is already repealed? Nothing.

frankly, on a societal scale i couldn't care less who is gay, what race one's parents are, what socio-economic background one comes from, or anything else that is irrelevant.

I think that's the ideal end-game.

The problem is that the playing field isn't level at this point if we simply decide not to pay attention--especially for socio-economic backgrounds.

See, here's the thing for me. I realize that homosexuals do suffer persecution and need some special protection. Still, I'm not really comfortable with people celebrating it as though it's some wonderful thing to be gay. Sure, it's their right and all if they want to. However, nobody (except perhaps my wife) really cares that I'm a heterosexual. Nobody's gonna give me any kind of analogous congratulations to someone who comes out of the closet. I think the disclosure of homosexuality should effect me precisely as much as the disclosure of heterosexuality--not at all. Nobody harasses me because of it. If only we lived in such a world for homosexuals. We don't, but we can at least celebrate that the government has made significant improvement there with the removal of DADT.
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