Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

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_Hoops
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »

Hoops, I may have made incorrect assumptions about why you have a problem with the gay soldier.
of course you have. Nothing I've written indicates I have a problem with the gay soldier, gay soldiers in general, gayness, or anything else gay.

I'm not anxiously trying to paint you with anything.
Yes, you are. You perceived me to be one way because of your bias, rather than from the words I've chosen.

This is my comment you accurately referenced: The military, until recently, had a ban on gays (rightly or wrongly) yet the gay soldiers knowingly violated that rule, presumably to promote some agenda.

What in the above leads you to believe I have some issue with gay soldiers? A reasonable reading would have one conclude that I have a problem with someone volunteering for an organization in order knowing that he/she has an agenda to change that organization. Frankly, that's sneaky, dishonest, and smarmy. It has nothing to do with gayness, it has everything to do with being a punk.


Your comment appears to reflect negatively on the gay soldier--that he violated a rule and probably had an agenda. My response was about why there may be a good reason for breaking certain rules. Now it sounds like he may not have broken any rules in the first place and that the problem you have was simply that he presumably had an agenda.
You could have got this by just taking me at my word.

If I didn't know better, I'd almost think you're being a bit disingenuous.
Or, perhaps, you should be more reflective. Maybe it was your own bias that led you here.


For people to be happy it was repealed because it was a stupid law?
Whatever the reasons why it was repealed, it still was repealed. Isn't that the point? Now folks have to have the right motivation to repeal it?


In this situation--where DADT is already repealed? Nothing.
Good.



The problem is that the playing field isn't level at this point if we simply decide not to pay attention--especially for socio-economic backgrounds.
More buzz words. What does level playing field even mean? I am suspicious of anyone who wants a level playing field because that has no end.

See, here's the thing for me. I realize that homosexuals do suffer persecution and need some special protection.
EVERYONE suffer persecution of some kind. What do you propose?

Still, I'm not really comfortable with people celebrating it as though it's some wonderful thing to be gay. Sure, it's their right and all if they want to. However, nobody (except perhaps my wife) really cares that I'm a heterosexual. Nobody's gonna give me any kind of analogous congratulations to someone who comes out of the closet. I think the disclosure of homosexuality should effect me precisely as much as the disclosure of heterosexuality--not at all. Nobody harasses me because of it. If only we lived in such a world for homosexuals. We don't, but we can at least celebrate that the government has made significant improvement there with the removal of DADT.
How do we NOT have that now?
_Some Schmo
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Some Schmo »

Hoops wrote: try stretching exercises, you might make 5'8" yet.

Do you have Jesus' dick in your mouth when you post? That would help explain the nonsense.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
_asbestosman
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _asbestosman »

Hoops wrote:A reasonable reading would have one conclude that I have a problem with someone volunteering for an organization in order knowing that he/she has an agenda to change that organization. Frankly, that's sneaky, dishonest, and smarmy. It has nothing to do with gayness, it has everything to do with being a punk.

As was mentioned before, he followed the rules of DADT. What's dishonest about that?

Even assuming he broke a rule and did it to change the organization, why would such civil disobedience be wrong? If the government has no business knowing or caring whether an individual has same-sex attraction or homosexual behavior, then having an agenda to change the stupid rule seems like, well, a good thing. Maybe you think everything should be done through voting, but if that were the case we'd still be denying people things on the basis of race. Some things suck bad enough that they should be changed yesterday--as fortunately DADT and certain racist policies have been.

By the way, I don't see where the constitution specifically protects religion more than race or sexual preference or even physical handicaps when it comes to military service. All I see is some line about not establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise of it.
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_Hoops
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »

As was mentioned before, he followed the rules of DADT. What's dishonest about that?
I wasn't writing about that particular soldier. Pre-DADT gay soldiers in general.

Even assuming he broke a rule and did it to change the organization, why would such civil disobedience be wrong?
Because we have mechanisms in place to make those changes. Taking your philosophy to it's inevitable conclusion, there will be no rules or laws one can count on. One thing that makes a free society is the expectation that the guy next to you, no matter his station in life, must obey the same rules and laws that you do.

If the government has no business knowing or caring whether an individual has same-sex attraction or homosexual behavior, then having an agenda to change the stupid rule seems like, well, a good thing.
The end justifies the means then in your view.

Maybe you think everything should be done through voting
,No, I don't.

but if that were the case we'd still be denying people things on the basis of race. Some things suck bad enough that they should be changed yesterday--as fortunately DADT and certain racist policies have been.
How could you possibly know that? That is an emotional appeal, rather than an argument.

By the way, I don't see where the constitution specifically protects religion more than race or sexual preference or even physical handicaps when it comes to military service. All I see is some line about not establishing religion nor prohibiting the free exercise of it.
The Supreme Court seems to disagree with you.
_honorentheos
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _honorentheos »

Hoops wrote:Because we have mechanisms in place to make those changes.

Yes we do. And they worked.

by the way - did you happen to figure out what Rick Santorum meant when he said that the ending of Don't Ask/Don't Tell (DADT) was going to "recognize a group of people and give them a special privilege to -- to -- "?

What exactly is his objection here? That they are going to give homosexuals a special privilege to...._____________________?

Getting away from the emotional issue around booing a member of the military, I'd be interested in your objective objections to repealing DADT if you have any.
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_Hoops
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Hoops »

Yes we do. And they worked.
But one wonders if you would think they still worked if gays were still banned from the military. Do they not work then?

by the way - did you happen to figure out what Rick Santorum meant when he said that the ending of Don't Ask/Don't Tell (DADT) was going to "recognize a group of people and give them a special privilege to -- to -- "?
No idea. One might guess that since homosexuals are well on their way to getting protected class status, his worry is that they will have the same in the military.

Getting away from the emotional issue around booing a member of the military, I'd be interested in your objective objections to repealing DADT if you have any.

I don't have any. I will have objections, however, if this translates into some sort of affirmative action for homosexuals.
_Buffalo
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Buffalo »

Hoops wrote:since homosexuals are well on their way to getting protected class status


By "protected class status" Hoops means that Christians soon won't be allowed to beat up gays anymore.
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_Some Schmo
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _Some Schmo »

Buffalo wrote:
Hoops wrote:since homosexuals are well on their way to getting protected class status


By "protected class status" Hoops means that Christians soon won't be allowed to beat up gays anymore.

Man, that'll suck for them. How else will they get to touch the gays without it looking gay?
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_honorentheos
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _honorentheos »

Hoops wrote:One might guess...

One might.

But since no one here really seems to have objections to the repeal of DADT, why bother?
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
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_honorentheos
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Re: Republican candidate cravenness and Romney/Cult thing

Post by _honorentheos »

Some Schmo wrote:
Buffalo wrote:By "protected class status" Hoops means that Christians soon won't be allowed to beat up gays anymore.

Man, that'll suck for them. How else will they get to touch the gays without it looking gay?

Lol
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
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