My Work Here is Done

[_jon]

Hmmm...Stem, the first dated recording of Joseph Smith First Vision is 1832.
Are you saying he was beaten and harassed etc prior to this?

of course. Have you not gotten wind of say, the time he was dragged out in the cold of night and tarred in feathered when he was 24? Or say some of the times he was dragged into court over spurious things? Or the hefty run he managed in 1827 with the plates, wherein he was clubbed and returned home tattered?

So prior to 1827, do we have anything from Joseph Smith that can be considered being the agressor?

Stem, my apologies. I thought you were referring to beatings and harrassments over his religion.
My mistake.

[_Doctor Scratch]

But as far as I'm aware the first vision account didn't get out into the discourse community until sometime after 1832. Therefore if there were "anti-Mormon" sentiment before 1832 your whole theory goes out the window. In this, I don't see how it can reasonably be said that Mormons started it at all.

What's your evidence that the account--or any similar account, doctrine, sermon, rumor, or utterance--didn't "get out into the discourse community until sometime after 1832"?

[_MsJack]

I'm rather confused, Simon. Earlier on this thread, you presented this list:

• One Nation Under Gods: A History of the [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian] Church.
• Under the [pastor, preacher, minister, priest] in [state]; the national menace of a political priestcraft.
• The God Makers.
• The Maze of [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]ism .
• Reasoning from the Scriptures With the [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]s.
• [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]ism Unmasked: Confronting the Contradictions Between [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian] Beliefs and True Christianity.
• [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian]ism : Shadow or Reality?
• The Word of God: Essays on [Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian] Scripture.

I assumed you were alluding to the following books:

• One Nation Under Gods by Richard Abanes (2002)
• Under the Prophet in Utah: The National Menace of a Political Priestcraft by Jerrold Harvey and Frank Jenne Cannon (2011)
• The God Makers by Ed Decker and Dave Hunt (c. 1980s)
• Reasoning From the Scriptures with the Mormons by Ron Rhodes and Mariane Bodine (1995)
• Mormonism Unmasked: Confronting the Contradictions Between Mormon Beliefs and True Christianity by R. Philip Roberts (1998)
• Mormonism: Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner (1987)
• The Word of God: Essays on Mormon Scripture edited by Dan Vogel (1990)

In response to this list, Darth J listed a collection of LDS writings which harshly attack and condemn the beliefs of other Christians. To this you replied:

Where do [the LDS writings] say other Christian denominations should be exterminated, their leaders tarred and feathered, their people driven out of their homes, their sacred texts drug on the street?

Where do the examples you alluded to say that Mormons should be exterminated, their leaders tarred and feathered, their people driven out of their homes, and their sacred texts drug on the street?

Because it looks to me like you are shifting the goalposts.

[_Jersey Girl]

Joseph Smith also attempted to add to God's Word, and we are told that "if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18) Smith's attempts to create new scripture, we see clearly from the Bible, invites God's wrath.

I understand that you (presumably a Traditional or Mainstream Christian) wish to state your opposition to Mormonism however, I am left with the question,

Why are you misrepresenting the Bible in order to do it?


The Revelation of John says NO such thing regarding the Bible.

Here is Revelation 22:18 in context:

Revelation 22
1And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

5And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

6And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

7Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.

9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

18For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

21The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Revelation 22: 18 & 19 make clear that the reference is to the prophetic content of the Book of Revelation, NOT the Bible. If you plan to put up an offense to Mormonism, please do not twist what the Bible states where I can see it. Your cherry picked bits of scripture are misrepresentations being used in a faulty fashion.

The Bible wasn't a "book" when this scripture was written. It is a collection of books gathered together as one canon. The "book" in question is the Book of Revelation.

If you're going to oppose Mormonism as untrue, then please publish the truth of what the Bible says.

In other words, don't attempt to use falsehoods to oppose what you believe is a lie.

It doesn't work.

[_Christian Avenger]

You are focusing on the word "book" instead of the word "prophecy." I am aware that the Bible as a whole was not united in a single book at that time. However, the Bible has a coherent message of God's Word. Mormonism deviates from the Good News of the Bible by preaching a false god, a false Jesus, and a false gospel. It is adding to/taking away from the message of "prophecy" contained in the scriptures that were gathered together in the Bible that was Joseph Smith's most egregious sin and which brought the judgment of God upon him. And it is Mormonism's persistence in rejecting the true message of the Bible for the polytheistic occult beliefs espoused by Joseph Smith that justifies rejecting Mormonism's claims to be a legitimate religion, let alone Christian.

[_Jersey Girl]

CA,

You aren't doing a good job of this.

You are focusing on the word "book" instead of the word "prophecy." I am aware that the Bible as a whole was not united in a single book at that time. However, the Bible has a coherent message of God's Word. Mormonism deviates from the Good News of the Bible by preaching a false god, a false Jesus, and a false gospel. It is adding to/taking away from the message of "prophecy" contained in the scriptures that were gathered together in the Bible that was Joseph Smith's most egregious sin and which brought the judgment of God upon him. And it is Mormonism's persistence in rejecting the true message of the Bible for the polytheistic occult beliefs espoused by Joseph Smith that justifies rejecting Mormonism's claims to be a legitimate religion, let alone Christian.

Here are your exact words:

Joseph Smith also attempted to add to God's Word, and we are told that "if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18) Smith's attempts to create new scripture, we see clearly from the Bible, invites God's wrath.

Now, explain what you meant when you published the above and try to be clear about it. Nowhere in the above, did you reference "prophecy".

[_Christian Avenger]

CA,

You aren't doing a good job of this.

You are focusing on the word "book" instead of the word "prophecy." I am aware that the Bible as a whole was not united in a single book at that time. However, the Bible has a coherent message of God's Word. Mormonism deviates from the Good News of the Bible by preaching a false god, a false Jesus, and a false gospel. It is adding to/taking away from the message of "prophecy" contained in the scriptures that were gathered together in the Bible that was Joseph Smith's most egregious sin and which brought the judgment of God upon him. And it is Mormonism's persistence in rejecting the true message of the Bible for the polytheistic occult beliefs espoused by Joseph Smith that justifies rejecting Mormonism's claims to be a legitimate religion, let alone Christian.

Here are your exact words:

Joseph Smith also attempted to add to God's Word, and we are told that "if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book." (Rev. 22:18) Smith's attempts to create new scripture, we see clearly from the Bible, invites God's wrath.

Now, explain what you meant when you published the above and try to be clear about it. Nowhere in the above, did you reference "prophecy".

The scriptures that were compiled as the Bible are the legitimate source of God's Word. What do you think "them" refers to in the verse I quoted? "The prophetic words of this book." The false prophet Joseph Smith attempted to pass off his false gospel as the true gospel of Christ Jesus by teaching that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures he wrote were equal to the prophetic words that eventually became what we have as the Bible. That is why Joseph Smith and his Mormon occult followers not only have suffered the plagues that were warned of by St. John, they deserve to.

[_Shulem]

You my friend are a follower of the God of the Bible and that's sad. You see, the God of the Bible is a cut-throat murderer who needs to be rounded up, arrested, tried, and found guilty of mass murder. The God of the Bible is an abomination. The writers of the Bible were smoking crack.

And, you, Christian Avenger, are an agent to the great murderer of fiction. I know you claim to love your God but I'll kill him if I ever get the chance. I'll throw his ass into a lake of fire and watch him scream for mercy. And no one will throw him a lifeline. Burn God, burn! Keep screaming God, I want to hear your screams and watch you suffer! Anyone who helps him must be arrested and thrown into the lake of fire.

Paul O

[_Jersey Girl]

CA

The scriptures that were compiled as the Bible are the legitimate source of God's Word. What do you think "them" refers to in the verse I quoted? "The prophetic words of this book." The false prophet Joseph Smith attempted to pass off his false gospel as the true gospel of Christ Jesus by teaching that the Book of Mormon and other scriptures he wrote were equal to the prophetic words that eventually became what we have as the Bible. That is why Joseph Smith and his Mormon occult followers not only have suffered the plagues that were warned of by St. John, they deserve to.

It refers to the prophetic words of the Book of Revelation.

[_Shulem]

Tear him up, Jersey Girl!

Paul O