If God interevened in the world, science wouldn't work

[_beefcalf]

I don't why you single out a "Western Christian" perspective. On your view, do the Eastern Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox, the Presbyterians in South Korea, the Christians in China, &c, have it over us in that regard? I don't see how, but I'm interested.

I made the criticism specific to Western Christians because I am not familiar enough in the Eastern Rite and other Christians sects to know if my criticism applies to them. It may. I don't yet know. I just didn't want to paint with too broad a brush.

while you titled your linked post "My argument against intercessory prayer," I discerned no argument there. You sketched a hypothetical scenario involving an evil man with many intercessors and a righteous man with none. You then asked four questions about the hypothetical scenario you posed without providing any answers (either your own or those you assume believers might give). But, that's not an argument.

You close with a tentative assertion--I hesitate to label it a conclusion, as it's not argued for: "It seems as if those who pray for intercession assume that God doesn't know what the hell he is doing."

As you have seen, my argument isn't formal. I attempted to show that when you have a 1) wise and all knowing God, and 2) a loving and merciful God and 3) that God is just, it is irrational to imagine that such a prayer would ever cause such a God to intercede. In any case deserving of his intercession, he will already know about it because he is omniscient, and he will already have blessed the deserving person because he is merciful, or he will have decided not to intercede on behalf of the evil person because he is just.

Think about it, would God withhold a blessing from a deserving person because he heard no prayers to intercede? Such a God must either not know about this deserving person's need, making him non-omnicient, or he would know but decide not to intercede, making him unmerciful. (And in LDS belief system, God is bound to deliver blessings to those who keep the commandments; withholding blessings in such circumstances makes God a covenant-breaker.)

Would God bless an evil and undeserving person simply because an imperfect and ignorant human asked him to? Such a god must either not know about this evil person's sins, making him non-omnicient, or would he would intercede despite the sins, making him unjust.

I haven't argued against intercessory prayer per se. I am arguing against intercession-through-prayer by way of a God who is just, merciful, wise and omniscient. If the God you worship is truly just, merciful, wise and omniscient, the idea that one can cause God to take action through one's prayers is worthy of scathing ridicule.

I could just as easily, and with equal justification, say, "It seems as if those who pray for intercession assume that God does know what he's doing," and there you go

I don't know why you said this. If people think God is running things in the right way and is doing just fine, for what purpose are they attempting to contact him? Why would you ask God to help Sister Rheinhardt's diabetes get better if you already trust that God knows all about her problems and knows whether or not she deserves his blessings? That doesn't make sense.

[_Franktalk]

I think that many of no faith have read the Bible and have become confused as to what it says. They do not see a kind and loving God. They see the acts in the Bible and say to them self that a kind and loving God would not do X or Y or Z. What they fail to understand is that God wishes to give mercy but will not circumvent justice.

If one repents then God has promised to forgive then mercy can be given. But if someone does not repent then justice must be done. A judgment on earth is a kind act for God. He can after justice is fulfilled then apply mercy. Much better to receive justice on earth when it is quick. From God's perspective the plan of salvation is a long continuous process. The short life we have here and the experiences we have are for learning. It is some men who place a different level of importance to this life. They see this life as the ultimate thing of value. But in reality the life we have is down the list of importance to a person of faith. So to pray to God is more important than life. Because the relationship with God is more important than life. The most important objective is to love God. Second is to love our fellow man.

[_cksalmon]

I made the criticism specific to Western Christians because I am not familiar enough in the Eastern Rite and other Christians sects to know if my criticism applies to them. It may. I don't yet know. I just didn't want to paint with too broad a brush.

Fair enough. With few exceptions, neither am I.

As you have seen, my argument isn't formal. I attempted to show that when you have a 1) wise and all knowing God, and 2) a loving and merciful God and 3) that God is just, it is irrational to imagine that such a prayer would ever cause such a God to intercede. In any case deserving of his intercession, he will already know about it because he is omniscient, and he will already have blessed the deserving person because he is merciful, or he will have decided not to intercede on behalf of the evil person because he is just.

This is a good start toward something more formal.

Is this a good representation of your argument? (Feel free to clarify and amend as you deem necessary.)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(1) God is all-knowing
(2) If (1), God gains no knowledge from intercessors

(from your: "In any case deserving of his intercession, he will already know about it because he is omniscient")

(3) God is merciful
(4) If (3), God always intervenes on behalf of a deserving person with or without intercession

(from your: "and he will already have blessed the deserving person because he is merciful")

(5) God is just
(6) If (5), God never intervenes on behalf of an evil person

(from your: "he will have decided not to intercede on behalf of the evil person because he is just")

(7) Therefore, intercessory prayer never causes God to intervene

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I could just as easily, and with equal justification, say, "It seems as if those who pray for intercession assume that God does know what he's doing," and there you go

I don't know why you said this. If people think God is running things in the right way and is doing just fine, for what purpose are they attempting to contact him? Why would you ask God to help Sister Rheinhardt's diabetes get better if you already trust that God knows all about her problems and knows whether or not she deserves his blessings? That doesn't make sense.

I meant here merely that my assertion, sans argumentation, would be no more or less a non seqitur than yours.

[_Milesius]

When was the last time a court relied solely on eye witness testimony?

I think a better question would be to ask how reliable an "eye-witness" account would be if it were written down decades later by an anonymous person who heard about the alleged event no better than second or third hand, and the account was then passed down, rewritten and copied countless times by countless scribes.

I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that stretches the definition of eye witness.

I don't know what you are describing here but it isn't the Gospels.

[_GR33N]

(As an aside: I believe GR33N is a good, faithful LDS thinker, and has prompted some useful thinking on my part in the past. I would like to hear his response to that particular line of inquiry, if he cares to make one.)

cksalmon, thank you for your compliment.

My argument against intercessory prayer:

Imagine two people. One is a very pious, very meek, godly man who prays day and night, gives of his food and clothes to the poor, and lives an austere and simple life reading the scripture. The other is a famous man of means, who lives in the public eye and is known for his substantial contributions to churches and charities and soup kitchens. But he is secretly living a life of debauchery and sleaze, cavorting with loose women and unscrupulous men, conniving and defrauding great fortunes from credulous investors. The pious man, during a moment of reverie and introspection in the forest, falls down an embankment and is knocked unconscious, suffering a serious wound to the head. The rich man falls ill during a charity gala and is rushed to the hospital, with television cameras recording the entire event live.

No person knows that the goodly, pious man has suffered a head wound and is lying near death at the bottom of the gorge. No person prays for God to assist this good man.

No person has any idea that the rich man in the hospital is the basest villain. Many thousands of concerned citizens witness the fall of the rich man and many thousands of prayers are sent heavenward, beseeching the Creator to pour out his mercy and blessings upon him.

God hears no prayers for the good man who deserves God's blessing. God hears thousands of prayers for the evil man who does not.

Will God withhold His blessings from the good man in the absence of prayers? Will God be swayed by those thousands of prayers to cure an undeserving man? If God blesses those whom he has judged stand in need of his blessing, then what purpose prayer? If God sees the foul heart of a swindler, will your uninformed and naïve call for intercession sway Him to provide blessings he would not otherwise grant?

It seems as if those who pray for intercession assume that God doesn't know what the hell he is doing.

First, we are commanded to pray always:

19 Therefore ye must always pray unto the Father in my name;

Second, why are we commanded to pray always? We are told in the previous verse.

18 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, ye must watch and pray always lest ye enter into temptation; for Satan desireth to have you, that he may sift you as wheat.

What does God do with our prayers in the example you have given? I believe you could apply the following verse to answer that question. (substitute the word bless in place of forgive to clarify)

10 I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.

11 And ye ought to say in your hearts—let God judge between me and thee, and reward thee according to thy deeds.

Don't let that confuse you as to whether or not God is bound to answers the prayers of the righteous. He answers prayers according to His will not ours but answer them He does. He doesn't fit into the box that beefcalf tries to paint him into as evidenced by his statements from his post above.

In any case deserving of his intercession, he will already know about it because he is omniscient, and he will already have blessed the deserving person because he is merciful, or he will have decided not to intercede on behalf of the evil person because he is just.

Such a god must either not know about this evil person's sins, making him non-omnicient, or would he would intercede despite the sins, making him unjust.

You have no way of knowing whether or not God has already blessed the deserving (unknown) person or not. Just as you have no way of knowing what His reasons are for the perceived intercession (or not) in the sinful mans life. Without a relationship with God and the Holy Ghost (who would bear witness to these facts if necessary) you would never receive that information anyway.

God commands us to pray for everyone whether they be good or evil so that we may be counted as children of our Father in Heaven. That is reason enough.

44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Praying for divine intervention is about our relationship with our Father in Heaven. If we want to be more like Him then we will have a desire to have charity in our hearts.

If you have given up on prayer I would remind you of the verse quoted in 3 Nephi that you might ask yourself where the source of the influence that is upon you may be coming from.

[_Buffalo]

I think that many of no faith have read the Bible and have become confused as to what it says. They do not see a kind and loving God. They see the acts in the Bible and say to them self that a kind and loving God would not do X or Y or Z. What they fail to understand is that God wishes to give mercy but will not circumvent justice.

If one repents then God has promised to forgive then mercy can be given. But if someone does not repent then justice must be done. A judgment on earth is a kind act for God. He can after justice is fulfilled then apply mercy. Much better to receive justice on earth when it is quick. From God's perspective the plan of salvation is a long continuous process. The short life we have here and the experiences we have are for learning. It is some men who place a different level of importance to this life. They see this life as the ultimate thing of value. But in reality the life we have is down the list of importance to a person of faith. So to pray to God is more important than life. Because the relationship with God is more important than life. The most important objective is to love God. Second is to love our fellow man.

This argument falls apart the moment you bring children into the mix.

[_cksalmon]

(As an aside: I believe GR33N is a good, faithful LDS thinker, and has prompted some useful thinking on my part in the past. I would like to hear his response to that particular line of inquiry, if he cares to make one.)

cksalmon, thank you for your compliment.

Sure. I meant it.

Don't let that confuse you as to whether or not God is bound to answers the prayers of the righteous. He answers prayers according to His will not ours but answer them He does. He doesn't fit into the box that beefcalf tries to paint him into as evidenced by his statements from his post above.

I was actually hoping that you would respond to my propositions above, but I do tend to agree with you that beefcalf's argument has some large holes in it and is generally bad, at least if I have represented his position correctly. Correction welcomed.

His central point, here, I think, however, is that on Mormonism, divine mercy is a function of one's individual deserving of such mercy. Is it your position that God is free to refrain from bestowing blessings on those who otherwise really do deserve such blessings in line with his own overriding, greater purpose; or, is it your position that no one has ever deserved mercy from God and that God bestows such upon those whom he does for his own purposes. The latter is my position, an avowedly Protestant, soteriologically-reformed one. Or, something else?

Let me say, a cursory look-around-town epistemology suggests that beefcalf's position that divine mercy is routinely earned by humans, on Mormonism, appears to be normative. Do you disagree with him on that point?

[_beefcalf]

You have no way of knowing whether or not God has already blessed the deserving (unknown) person or not. Just as you have no way of knowing what His reasons are for the perceived intercession (or not) in the sinful mans life. Without a relationship with God and the Holy Ghost (who would bear witness to these facts if necessary) you would never receive that information anyway.

You've missed the point. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not you know if God has or hasn't blessed someone.

Let me try to boil it down:

A person is suffering.

A certain amount of time passes. Seconds, hours, days, years... doesn't matter.

After this amount of time, God has not yet blessed the person.

You pray, and, as a direct result of your prayer to God asking him to intercede, he grants the suffering person a blessing, thus reducing or eliminating his suffering, or perhaps giving him strength to endure the suffering.


What if you hadn't prayed? Would God continue withholding the blessing? What if the person was a very obedient and faithful person, perhaps like Job?

What if the person suffering was evil and deserved his fate? Would God bless this evil person simply because you asked him to?

Intercessory prayer is like finding the best neurosurgeon in the country to remove your child's brain tumor, then constantly offering suggestions during the surgery on how best she should proceed.

I do tend to agree with you that beefcalf's argument has some large holes in it and is generally bad, at least if I have represented his position correctly. Correction welcomed.

I am not bothered that you think my argument is 'bad' but I do wish you would have stated explicitly why you think it is bad.

I get the vague idea that you are not LDS and are not terribly familiar with LDS doctrine and teachings. If so, there may be a disconnect here between our separate understandings of 'blessings' and mercy and justice...

[_cksalmon]

I get the vague idea that you are not LDS and are not terribly familiar with LDS doctrine and teachings. If so, there may be a disconnect here between our separate understandings of 'blessings' and mercy and justice...

Well, on both counts, there's no reason your surmising need remain vague, beefcalf:

I'd refer you to my direct response to you, apparently missed, on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 at 7:04 am (my time) on page 2 of this very thread.

there may be a disconnect here between our separate understandings of 'blessings' and mercy and justice...

Yeah, no doubt, beefcalf. For immediate confirmation of your belated observation, see my post (now) above yours from which you've quoted my words, and in which post I directly contrast your apparent understanding with my own (mine is the "avowedly Protestant, soteriologically-reformed one").

Let me know if I've correctly construed your argument, but make any corrections you deem appropriate, and, taking to mind your corrections, I'll let you know if/why I still find it to be a bad one.

EDIT: My construal of your argument is about five posts above this one.

[_beefcalf]

Well, on both counts, there's no reason your surmising need remain vague, beefcalf:

I'd refer you to my direct response to you, apparently missed, on Tuesday, October 11, 2011 at 7:04 am (my time) on page 2 of this very thread.

No, I hadn't missed your references to being Protestant. That being said, the fact that you are Protestant does not preclude the possibility that you grew up LDS, or had been converted for a time, and reverted to mainstream Christianity later. In those cases, you could be a Protestant who has a fairly in-depth knowledge of Mormonism. I was being cautious in not assuming too much about you. The vagueness was in my incomplete understanding how familiar you are with LDS culture and teachings, nothing more.

I read through your more more formalized restatement of my argument. I didn't like it. Now that may be because you did a really crappy job of formalizing my argument. Or, it might be that my argument itself is crappy, and you made short work of making that apparent. I haven't yet decided. What I have noted, however, is that you haven't said much about it other than organizing it and declaring it as bad. I get the impression you have just the perfectly devastating response to my silly atheistic ramblings but you'd like me to paint myself a little tighter into my corner before springing the trap shut. That's fine. What do you need me to say? I'll say it. I just want to hear why you think the argument doesn't work.

I'm not here to win. I'm here to learn.