Three methods of discovering "the truth"

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_Hoops
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _Hoops »

keithb wrote:
"Does it matter" is a slightly ambiguous parameter here.

If you mean, "Did we get the same result?" I would say that, in this case, the answer is yes.

However, I would point out that, excluding either incredible luck or the presence of some supernatural power on the part of the witch doctor, this is an outcome that is highly unlikely. Indeed, a witch doctor guessing at the shape of the earth would probably conclude, without other evidence, that it was flat, since it is approximately flat locally. Indeed, with any scientific question, the witch doctor would be unlikely to arrive at the correct solution and would come up with all sorts of unscientific theories. This is similar to the cause underlying the numerous unscientific statements in the Christian Bible.


So, it doesn't matter? Yet, it seems to matter to you as you don't like the way I've arrived at this truth. Apparently. I can't really tell. Or is your point that the witch doctor couldn't get to the same truth anyway, so maybe that doesn't matter?

I've noted your almost parenthetical swipe at the Bible, which has nothing to do with my question. Just can't he'pit canya?
_plunderpunk
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _plunderpunk »

Truth, like religion, is a social construct. What ever the group/sect/social/peer group identifies as truth (or means of truth detection) defines that truth. None is more "legit" then the next out side
of a group setting - but since we general live in groups, they decide for us. The tighter the control a group has over its members, the more scorn members experience for questioning or rejecting group specific truths.

Given all this, churches touting the "true church" claim like the LDS does says more about them then the truths they espouse.
_KevinSim
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _KevinSim »

keithb wrote:Method 1: Wiccan spell

Let me see where I am blind,
Let the seal on my third eye unwind,
Separate the truth and lies,
And show them to me in my eyes.

What does someone's "third eye" have to do with finding out what "the truth" is?

keithb wrote:Method 2: Voodoo truth ritual

Truth spell #1
By: mr.wizard

Materials:

* Thyme
* A red candle
* An herb dish

Pour the Thyme into the herb dish and say:

"Purification I do conjure
So that thoughts be spoke,
No be pondered"

Light the candle and say:

"Passion so red,
Set to the fire,
Let the truth be said,
As is my desire"

Drop red wax onto the herbs and say:

"Mists of thyme,
Fire of red,
Send the truth to my head"

Now go to your front door and release the herbs to the wind. You shall let thyme fly and receive the truth.

What do thyme, a red candle, an herb dish, and red wax have to do with finding out what "the truth" is?

keithb wrote:Method 3: Mormon truth ritual

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how amerciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and bponder it in your chearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would aask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not btrue; and if ye shall ask with a csincere heart, with dreal intent, having efaith in Christ, he will fmanifest the gtruth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may aknow the btruth of all things.

For the record, I've never understood why one of the ingredients in this "truth ritual" is to have "faith in Christ." I mean why in the world would a Hindu or a Zoroastrian feel any motivation to have faith in Christ? I certainly can't think of any reason. So does that forever remove Hindus and Zoroastrians from ever finding out "the truth" about God? That can't be right.

The "Mormon truth ritual" works not because one particular book of scripture says it will work. It works for people who have faith in a good God because whatever else that God knows, S/He knows that if S/He doesn't reply to a question somebody asks about "the truth," that someone has no way whatsoever of ever knowing "the truth." If God being good means anything at all, it means God will answer such a question.
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
_Cardinal Biggles
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _Cardinal Biggles »

The Mormon truth test seems to employ circular logic:

"How can I know that the Book of Mormon is true?"

"You must pray and ask God if it is true, and he will tell you that it is true."

"Why do you think that God will do that?"

"Because the Book of Mormon says that he will!"


There's also this:

"How will I know that God has answered my prayer regarding whether the scriptures are true?"

"Because you will have a good feeling about it."

"What makes you think that God answers prayers with good feelings?"

"Because the scriptures say so!"

"You mean the scriptures whose truth I am praying to discover?"

"Exactly!"
_keithb
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _keithb »

Hoops wrote:
So, it doesn't matter? Yet, it seems to matter to you as you don't like the way I've arrived at this truth. Apparently. I can't really tell. Or is your point that the witch doctor couldn't get to the same truth anyway, so maybe that doesn't matter?

I've noted your almost parenthetical swipe at the Bible, which has nothing to do with my question. Just can't he'pit canya?


A witch doctor told you the earth was round? Huh.
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
_keithb
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _keithb »

KevinSim wrote:For the record, I've never understood why one of the ingredients in this "truth ritual" is to have "faith in Christ." I mean why in the world would a Hindu or a Zoroastrian feel any motivation to have faith in Christ? I certainly can't think of any reason. So does that forever remove Hindus and Zoroastrians from ever finding out "the truth" about God? That can't be right.

The "Mormon truth ritual" works not because one particular book of scripture says it will work. It works for people who have faith in a good God because whatever else that God knows, S/He knows that if S/He doesn't reply to a question somebody asks about "the truth," that someone has no way whatsoever of ever knowing "the truth." If God being good means anything at all, it means God will answer such a question.


I actually think that you're still giving the Mormon truth ritual way too much credit here. There are a ton of implicit assumptions that go into these versus. Here are a few.

1.God exists
2.God answers prayers
3.The Christian God is the correct choice
4.Praying is an effective means of communicating with God
5.Finding out the truth by the "Holy Ghost" is a phrase that has meaning
6.Ghosts exist
7.Effort is required for an individual to receive an answer to a prayer

And many, many other assumptions that are completely unfounded in anything except supernatural tradition.

Indeed, it is very much like the whole voodoo ritual at its base.
"Joseph Smith was called as a prophet, dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb-dumb" -South Park
_Franktalk
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _Franktalk »

But what is truth?

If I design a circuit so that an input of 011011001 causes an output of 001 is that truth? Or is it an observation of a particular design?

If I design another circuit where the same input gives me a different output is that truth? How can two different designs with two different relationships contain truth?

So the first question is truth always unchanging? If this is true then observations of a design can not contain truth. Unless the observation is always the same regardless of the design. This would imply that truth is a rule that transcends any design.

When we look at the world some think that the world is all there is and as such is the only possible design. So these people link observations with truth. Now others see this world as one of many possible designs so truth can not come from this design. They feel that truth is outside of this world.

If indeed truth is universal and outside of the world then the real question is which external realm offers truth? If there is a God and that God is so powerful that whatever they say manifest in reality then they are truth. It is my opinion that God is truth.
_jon
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _jon »

Cardinal Biggles wrote:The Mormon truth test seems to employ circular logic:

"How can I know that the Book of Mormon is true?"

"You must pray and ask God if it is true, and he will tell you that it is true."

"Why do you think that God will do that?"

"Because the Book of Mormon says that he will!"


There's also this:

"How will I know that God has answered my prayer regarding whether the scriptures are true?"

"Because you will have a good feeling about it."

"What makes you think that God answers prayers with good feelings?"

"Because the scriptures say so!"

"You mean the scriptures whose truth I am praying to discover?"

"Exactly!"


You forgot the additional clause:
''What if God answers my prayers with good feelings about the scriptures being false?''

''Oh, that's Satan giving you those good feelings, you can tell the difference because they are against what it says in the scriptures that you are praying about, that say God will give you a good feeling about them. So, if it confirms what the scriptures say then you can believe it. If it doesn't you should disbelieve it even though it may be the exact same feeling....''
'Church pictures are not always accurate' (The Nehor May 4th 2011)

Morality is doing what is right, regardless of what you are told.
Religion is doing what you are told, regardless of what is right.
_Nightlion
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _Nightlion »

jon wrote:
You forgot the additional clause:
''What if God answers my prayers with good feelings about the scriptures being false?''

''Oh, that's Satan giving you those good feelings, you can tell the difference because they are against what it says in the scriptures that you are praying about, that say God will give you a good feeling about them. So, if it confirms what the scriptures say then you can believe it. If it doesn't you should disbelieve it even though it may be the exact same feeling....''


This is the sort of nonsense that is inevitable after incompetence and inexperience have led people into arrogance and apostasy. On this thread we have a list of folks pretending to be interested in the discovery of truth who CHANGE the principle to force the rule of arrogance over submissiveness to truth.Thus they conclude: the power of the Holy Ghost=good feelings.

This thread demonstrates that most people here have very good feelings about:
1.God DOES NOT exists
2.God DOES NOT answers prayers
3.The Christian God is NOT the correct choice
4.Praying is NOT an effective means of communicating with God
5.Finding out the truth by the "Holy Ghost" is a phrase that has NO meaning
6.Ghosts do not exist
7.NO effort is required for an individual to receive an answer to a prayer.

Because pride of necessity had to cover up the incompetence of LDS spiritual leadership good feelings was accepted as a legitimate substitute for the power of the Holy Ghost. People who want the church to be true will have good feelings about it. Leadership will be adored as valid.
Is it not wonderful?

Most importantly nobody's faith in Jesus Christ could ever be qualified because the formula had been altered and therefore the results were contaminated. It just works that everyone who has good feelings about the Church also have legitimate faith in Jesus Christ.
Pride rules.

On the other hand; if someone had true faith in Jesus Christ, not only would they be able to know truth by the power of the Holy Ghost, they would DO what is written and not SAY only.
These would advance to the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost and be forever after filled with the Spirit of Truth and be taught of God. The abundance of spiritual validation even constant validation would secure the children of God from the fearful doubts (science) of the world.

The children of the arrogant pretenders to truth would inherit frustration and confusion when handed their straight-jacket to put on. After they become independent they resent the abuse and revolt. Sensing a good feeling once they are free from religion they are compelled with a burning desire to save the world and bear their testimony constantly that religion is false.

Either way Satan wins. Jesus and the truth go unknown. None are taught of God. None are filled with joy unspeakable. None are made clean. None are raised up to a state of righteousness. None are gifted with treasures of talent, intellect, and spiritual power with God. Zion never happens. The Apocalrock is not believed although a man declares it unto the people.
The Apocalrock Manifesto and Wonders of Eternity: New Mormon Theology
https://www.docdroid.net/KDt8RNP/the-apocalrock-manifesto.pdf
https://www.docdroid.net/IEJ3KJh/wonders-of-eternity-2009.pdf
My YouTube videos:HERE
_KevinSim
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Re: Three methods of discovering "the truth"

Post by _KevinSim »

keithb wrote:I actually think that you're still giving the Mormon truth ritual way too much credit here. There are a ton of implicit assumptions that go into these versus. Here are a few.

1.God exists
2.God answers prayers
3.The Christian God is the correct choice
4.Praying is an effective means of communicating with God
5.Finding out the truth by the "Holy Ghost" is a phrase that has meaning
6.Ghosts exist
7.Effort is required for an individual to receive an answer to a prayer

And many, many other assumptions that are completely unfounded in anything except supernatural tradition.

Indeed, it is very much like the whole voodoo ritual at its base.

As I stated in my previous post, I see no reason whatsoever for the requirement that the person asking God have "faith in Christ," so that does away with assumption (3). Is there a significant difference between (2) and (4)? As I did away with (3), so I'd dispose of (6); I see no reason why the asker would be required to assume that ghosts exist; all the asker has to do is assume that God exists, and that God can communicate with said asker.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding (7), but it looks to me like a tautology; the only effort the asker is required to do is ask the question, say the prayer. How can you get an answer to a prayer that you don't say?

So the only significant assumptions I see are (1), (2), and (5).

I guess I just find it more reasonable to assume that God exists than to assume that a chant about a "third eye" is going to lead one to truth; or to assume that thyme, red candles, herb dishes, and red wax will lead one to truth.

I mean, what's the reasoning behind talking about a "third eye"? Is there some inherent reason why such an eye will lead to truth more certainly than a third ear would, or perhaps a second nose? And I think Plato made a very persuasive argument that real truth comes from inside someone's mind, not from anything external at all.

And what's with the thyme and herb stuff? There are lots of edible things out in the world; why should thyme and herb dishes lead us to truth more certainly than, say, carrots and zucchini? And why does it have to be edible things that lead us to truth?

On the other hand, the simple fact is that if the universe doesn't have someone in it that knows how to preserve forever some good things, and that isn't acting to preserve forever some good things, then there's no way that I know of that anybody can ever find out for certain the truth about anything. Or, KeithB, can you perhaps think of some way of finding out the truth for certain about anything?

It just seems to me that if one really wants to know the truth about eternal things, then that one has two choices. That one can assume a forever preserver does in fact exist, and go to that forever preserver with a question, the answer to which that one can use as a certain foundation for that one's knowledge of eternal things; or that one can spend that one's life attempting to become the mentioned forever preserver.

KeithB, can you think of any alternative?
KevinSim

Reverence the eternal.
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