To the women of the board

[_Morley]

Jersey Girl,

You would be correct.
In a recent UNICEF report which ranked countries according the their merits on child upbringing (safety, education, moral values, nutrition etc) Scandinavian countries ranked very highly. I do believe Norway was very near if not at the top. Unsurprisingly, the home of Mormonism ranked near the bottom.

Finland was ranked quite high by newsweek. But when one looks at the research of social workers and sociologists in that country one sees that social ills are immense. I have often mentioned this to finnish researchers and they also shake their heads because they do not understand just how outside agencies don't notice the ills that they research. I have posted one such problem on this thread, the same with Norway. One must be a social scientist within the perspective country to notice the ills and report the results.

http://theforeigner.no/pages/news/norwe ... g-culture/

Don't tell the UNICEF results to the people involved in the violence in the link.

Emphasis mine.

I see from your profound knowledge of the country and your intimate access to Finnish social science researchers that you must either have a government position in Finland or have a doctorate in the social sciences, WhyMe. My hat's off to you!

[_why me]

I see from your profound knowledge of the country and your intimate access to Finnish social science researchers that you must either have a government position in Finland or have a doctorate in the social sciences, WhyMe. My hat's off to you!

Well you have the doctorate right but in a different field. Finland has been lauded over for their educational system. I have seen american teachers report glowingly about the finnish educational system. However,the children feel like crap when they are in school. This is very rarely reported by the outside media but commented on by finnish reseachers in the field. One reason for the crap feeling is because of home problems among other reasons. The problem is: nothing is really what it seems and scandinavian social researchers are amazed about what are often overlooked in their society by outside agencies. I think that these govenments give a 'Potemkin Village' experience to outsiders.

However, much can be said for globalization under a lean and mean capitalism. It is causing havoc in families all over the world. The strive for competitiveness and productivity, mixed with a system of profit before people is lowing us all to one common result: we are nothing but objects. So, we react in the ways that I linked. Norway has also experienced immense changes and the people are feeling these changes sharply. But they are doing better than Sweden and finland which are in the EU. However, the terrible shooting of social democratic young people while at camp by a lone gunman, sent a shock wave throughout Norway. The gumman killed tens of young people. I am sure that there is more discussion now over dehumanization in Norwegian society.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2007/06/poll ... fresh=null

Somebody is lacking family values. At least according to the above.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-13779834

Also, in this link. Listen to the findings.

Hello Mr. Whyme,

So, you quote an English language Finnish website that conducted a survey of 3600 High School students in Vantaa, Finland (population 200,000) in order to prove your point that

Exmormons can be great parents without the Mormon church, but I also know that many incorporate LDS family values into their daily living to give their families good possiblities for success.

Are you ******* retarded? <- Note that I "asterisked out" the potentially offensive curse word because the insane Moderator Ms. Liz banned me for a week for swearing (even though she didn't do that with others during the same time frame). I hope her totally respectable sensibilities and totally not hypocritical Mormon standards can rest easy now that I'm not cursing on the Terrestrial forum.

V/R
Dr. Cameron NC, 4 Me

[_Jason Bourne]

Can someone, anyone, perhaps even an LDS fan, explain how a religion that conditions a womens salvation to being tied to a man, can possibly be attractive to any woman with a brain?

Is the salvation/exaltation of a woman any more tied to the man than the man is to the woman? If I recall marriage is a two way street and this is the requirement.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Really Mr. Bourne? I don't recall a man having to be pulled into Heaven. It's the other way around.

[_Buffalo]

Really Mr. Bourne? I don't recall a man having to be pulled into Heaven. It's the other way around.

No, he's right. Men can't become gods in LDS theology without women. That's not to say that the religion isn't fundamentally misogynist, because it is.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Really Mr. Bourne? I don't recall a man having to be pulled into Heaven. It's the other way around.

No, he's right. Men can't become gods in LDS theology without women. That's not to say that the religion isn't fundamentally misogynist, because it is.

I agree to a certain extent. However a Man gets pulled into Heaven by Jesus (or His proxies), but a woman can't be pulled into Heaven without her Man. The wife must tell her husband her new name, and no one else, and he calls her up in the resurrection.

LDS Apostle Charles W. Penrose wrote:

In the divine economy, as in nature, the man “is the head of the woman,” and it is written that “he is the savior of the body.” But “the man is not without the woman” any more than the woman is without the man, in the Lord. Adam was first formed, then Eve. In the resurrection, they stand side by side and hold dominion together. Every man who overcomes all things and is thereby entitled to inherit all things, receives power to bring up his wife to join him in the possession and enjoyment thereof.

In the case of a man marrying a wife in the everlasting covenant who dies while he continues in the flesh and marries another by the same divine law, each wife will come forth in her order and enter with him into his glory. (“Mormon” Doctrine Plain and Simple, or Leaves from the Tree of Life, by Charles W. Penrose, p.66, 1897, Salt Lake City, UT.)

LDS Apostle Erastus Snow preached the following on Sunday, Oct. 4, 1857:

Do the women, when they pray, remember their husbands?… Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? “What!—my husband to be my lord?” I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom [during the temple ceremony] without the aid of your husband. If you did, it was because your husband was away, and some one had to act proxy for him. No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5, p. 291)

I think Man has a leg up over Woman within the Mormon context.

-VRDRC4M

[_Jason Bourne]

Really Mr. Bourne? I don't recall a man having to be pulled into Heaven. It's the other way around.

Neither a man nor a woman can inherit exaltation without being married and sealed. Thus it seems that men are as dependent on women as women are on men.

There is the some of the odd 19th century comments such as a husband calls a woman from her grave at resurrection but I do not think this means exaltation or even resurrection is dependent on the man. I recall my mission president once saying to us that a man would call a wife from her grace at resurrection..but he said, you better treat her well in this life because when you call her she does not have to come. I think he was kidding with us to make a point.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

No. A man can get into Heaven if he's single, but will then be awarded a woman for Exaltation. A woman cannot get into Heaven without her man. There's a big difference.

[_Jason Bourne]

No. A man can get into Heaven if he's single, but will then be awarded a woman for Exaltation. A woman cannot get into Heaven without her man. There's a big difference.

Can you give me a reference? I don't see it in your quotes above. Here is what D&C 131 says about this:

1 In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

2 And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this border of the priesthood [meaning the new and deverlasting covenant of marriage];

3 And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

4 He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

I believe in this case man means man or woman.