The Infinite atonement--no not the book

[_Buffalo]

The ones in which you started saying how atheism makes people appreciate life more, makes people happier or whatever. you know those ones. The dots you tried to connect left chasms of unsupported assumptions.

I tried to couch it in terms of from my personal experience. I even said that in other cases it seems likely that theism would make people happier.

oh no not the no pearls before swine thing again(;

It's not that. It's just that you don't seem to be able to think about your faith critically. It's not just you - it's almost all religious folks. Even highly intelligent ones. It's just how our brains are wired.

uh wow. I'm surprised that's your view. Well I disagree.

I've made concessions to your side. You've made none to mine.

[_stemelbow]

I didn't make sweeping generalizations. I said atheism is in some ways better. I admitted that theism could be better in other circumstances. You've made no such concessions.

Look, Buffalo, I'm not so interested in quibbling about the insignificant details. Surely you can agree that you said, "atheism makes you appreciate your life better, and live life more fully. Instead of doing everything in the context of preparing for an imaginary afterlife, you have the perspective of every moment in your life being precious and irreplacable. It's simple economics - scarcity drives up value. If you think you're going to live forever, each day you have is less valuable because there is an infinite number of them. Just like a dollar is less important to a millionaire (or someone who thinks he's a millionaire) than to a homeless man.

You also appreciate your family more, for the same reason - you have less time with them. At least, it made ME appreciate them more."

Inherent in the above are what I'd call sweeping generalizations "atheism makes you..." I suppose we can quibble back and forth whether they are sweeping generalizations (ahtough I honestly don't know how you are going to take the con position on that), but I don't see there being anything productive in that.

And just so you know, incase you've missed it, I did concede that atheism works for some people much better than faith. So I did make some concessions. But on the flip I don't think saying the poor and less educated need fantasy is giving much concession at all. I see it as another sweeping generalization.

I'd just throw one scripture at you, Stem. "Men are that they might have joy."

Thanks.

I'm positive that I'm biased now in favor of atheism. But the key thing is that I became an atheism AGAINST my bias at the time, which was faithful LDS, wanting to believe in God and heaven and the restoration. Whatever position we hold at any given time eventually becomes our bias. But the evidence, as I saw it, caused me to go against my bias at the time.

Well good for you.

[_stemelbow]

I tried to couch it in terms of from my personal experience. I even said that in other cases it seems likely that theism would make people happier.

I'm not so sure saying the poor and uneducated needing fantasy works though, Buffalo. Not only are religionists in some cases well-educated and rich, but some atheists are poor and uneducated. Not only are some religionists not living in fantasy, but some atheists are.

It's not that. It's just that you don't seem to be able to think about your faith critically. It's not just you - it's almost all religious folks. Even highly intelligent ones. It's just how our brains are wired.

I see...so throwing out the reasons why atheism is subperb to religion to religionists doesn't work because they won't think critically of their own faith? If you were to tell us why we were wrong we'd misuse the information? And its not no pearls before swine? Alrighty.

I've made concessions to your side. You've made none to mine.

I disagree. I've said to both you and Rambo that I can see that atheism works for you guys. That's not really germane to the point of my thread though.

[_Buffalo]

And just so you know, incase you've missed it, I did concede that atheism works for some people much better than faith. So I did make some concessions. But on the flip I don't think saying the poor and less educated need fantasy is giving much concession at all. I see it as another sweeping generalization.

Okay, good point. You've made concessions - I recognize that now. But I didn't make "sweeping generalizations, not in context of all my statements.

I'm positive that I'm biased now in favor of atheism. But the key thing is that I became an atheism AGAINST my bias at the time, which was faithful LDS, wanting to believe in God and heaven and the restoration. Whatever position we hold at any given time eventually becomes our bias. But the evidence, as I saw it, caused me to go against my bias at the time.

Well good for you.

You sound angry. Are you angry?

[_stemelbow]

You sound angry. Are you angry?

no. my "good for you" was genuine. And, just so you know when I encourage others I'm generally not angry at all.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Stem,

Take it or leave it, just some friendly advice. You might want to take a break from posting for a while. I have seen a slow, steady progression towards hostility in your posts. It might be good for the soul to take a little vacation from MDB and focus on your "high paying" career.

Love ya tons man :)

[_Mad Viking]

If you think of it in terms of individuals...in terms of personalities...in terms of viewpoints...in terms of living breathing loving souls, this world is just so large. There is so much out there. So many ideas...so many perspectives...so many desires...and wants...and actual relationships.

Ain't that the truth.

Yep. Relationships. I just realize more and more that relationships are by and large our purpose in life.

I'm not sure that could be said for everyone, but for me relationships (specifically my family) are my chosen purpose in life.

The second greatest commandment, afterall, is to love each other.

I'm not convinced there is such a thing (commandments from a supernatural diety).

As I read the words of the Savior during His time in Gethseman I'm encouraged that my view is supported. In the end, He plead that His followers can be one or united as The Son and The Father are. His hope, his dying wish, was that there would be unity.

I'd need your help on exactly where I could find his statements on such matters. Reference? I wonder how the authors of the Bible books heard him give such statements sicne he was alone. Oh well... that's another topic.

Without love, without relationships there is no unity. To me, even more than sacrificing for sin, this is atonement. Surely we could figure out some way to get along and associate without the atonement, but could we really get over all the personal quibbles and all the personal assaults without it? I don't think so.

I disagree. "Repentance" to a god may be a motivator for some people making amends but it doesn't play a part in my motivation for relationship maintenance.

Atonement adds such depth, and such meaning to unity I daresay there is nothing greater.

Not for me it doesn't.

Jesus had to give to us. He had to go through the pains and sufferings of mankind in every way in order to be able to give to us. In order to be able to know what it will take for unity.

I personally don't need someone to die for me to understand or engage in "unity".

At some point we simply can't comprehend the very diverse ideas and opinions that exist among the world's inhabitants. But to add to the unfathomable possibility, we simply can't do the same for all the inhabitants that ever lived. The amount of perspective and paradigms is just too great. its just all too far beyond us.

Agreed. And the supposed "atonement" does nothing to make this any easier. In some cases it causes people to reject the notion of unity.

I suppose with that said, it'd be much easier to just assume there is no Savior. There is no life after death. There is no God.

I don't know about ease. My journey out of belief was not easy or comfortable.

I just can't do that for many reasons, but one such reason is because on such a view of atheism, there is no potential, eternal, nearly all-encompassing, nor as diverse a unity possible.

I beg to differ. In my brand of atheism there is no arbitrary judgement of a petty god. We all come from and return to the same place. We are all unified in our final state and place in the universe.

Things become far more dreadful to me. That's of course not so say that atheists don't have things to live for or that they are anymore less happy or healthy than religionists.

That is certainly a true statement. I think that atheism is very dreadful to my wife. That and I'm sure she truly believes and (in her mind) has good reasons to do so. That is why I wised up and stopped trying to convince here otherwise. Life has been much more sweet and unified since we've both accepted and embraced our different viewpoints. Man... that sounds like unity. I didn't even have to mention Jeezo or his atonement.

Please pardon my weak ability to explain myself and lets move forward discussing this if you please.

Back at ya.

[_stemelbow]

Stem,

Take it or leave it, just some friendly advice. You might want to take a break from posting for a while. I have seen a slow, steady progression towards hostility in your posts. It might be good for the soul to take a little vacation from MDB and focus on your "high paying" career.

Love ya tons man :)

focus on my what?

Anyway, thanks for the advice. We'll see how it goes. sadly, i think your reading hostility into my posts. There is none.

[_Molok]

I will give you that for someone with a really terrible life, theism probably makes their life better. When reality sucks, it's nice to live in a fantasy world. It helps give you a positive attitude.

Maybe that's why you see more atheists among the educated and upper income (not that I'm upper income). They don't need a fantasy world to distract them from a harsh reality. If you've served a mission you'll remember how much more open the poor and downtrodden are to the message of Mormonism.

Religion isn't the only way people create a fantasy world you know. Some people create a fantasy world with drugs. Some people create a fantasy world in the internet. Some people create a fantasy world by convincing themselves they're not really pieces of crap, but normal, well adjusted people. Some people create fantasy worlds by stalking someone, and pretending that they're married. I could really go on, but maybe you get the point by now. Human beings, as a whole, create fantasy worlds for themselves. That's what makes us human. You do it. So do I. So does everyone else here, and being educated and rich has “F” all to do with it.

[_Everybody Wang Chung]

Anyway, thanks for the advice. We'll see how it goes. sadly, i think your reading hostility into my posts. There is none.

Said the blind man.........................