stemelbow wrote: I just can't do that for many reasons, but one such reason is because on such a view of atheism, there is no potential, eternal, nearly all-encompassing, nor as diverse a unity possible.
Mad Viking wrote: I beg to differ. In my brand of atheism there is no arbitrary judgement of a petty god.
Good. But there is no such a thing in my brand of Mormonism either.
We all come from and return to the same place. We are all unified in our final state and place in the universe.
Well in religious belief we all come from the same place too. I'm not sure how that would bring unity to mankind. I'm not sure how that promotes love.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Mad Viking wrote:I beg to differ. In my brand of atheism there is no arbitrary judgement of a petty god.
stemelbow wrote:Good. But there is no such a thing in my brand of Mormonism either.
On more than one occassion, my wife has made the statement, "You and I grew up in different (Mormon) churches". She's referring to a literal difference in the things we were taught in church and our differing perceptions of the church. The differences are likely due to a complicated equation that includes the region we grew up in (her in the midwest, and me in the Mormon corridor) and simple differences among people. So... I'm willing to grant you that your view of the Mormon god doesn't label him as arbitrary or petty. Mine did/does.
Mad Viking wrote:We all come from and return to the same place. We are all unified in our final state and place in the universe.
stemelbow wrote:Well in religious belief we all come from the same place too. I'm not sure how that would bring unity to mankind. I'm not sure how that promotes love.
Me neither. Does it have to? Does the idea of us all being arbitrarily judged and punished for eternity promote love?
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
Stem wrote:Surely we could figure out some way to get along and associate without the atonement, but could we really get over all the personal quibbles and all the personal assaults without it? I don't think so. Atonement adds such depth, and such meaning to unity I daresay there is nothing greater.
Surely we could figure out some way to bake a chocolate cake without the atonement, but could we really bake one that tastes just so good that everyone would love it? I don't think so. Atonement adds such rich, chocolaty flavor to any cake, such moist chewiness, that I daresay there is nothing greater.
Mad Viking wrote:On more than one occassion, my wife has made the statement, "You and I grew up in different (Mormon) churches". She's referring to a literal difference in the things we were taught in church and our differing perceptions of the church. The differences are likely due to a complicated equation that includes the region we grew up in (her in the midwest, and me in the Mormon corridor) and simple differences among people. So... I'm willing to grant you that your view of the Mormon god doesn't label him as arbitrary or petty. Mine did/does.
Fine. You have a different view of the LDS religion than I do. But I'm here to discuss it. What does atheism offer in terms of something good? As I see it Mormonism at least offers the opportunity to have lasting love and unity among humanity at some point. Atheism doesn't offer much if anything on that front. You see Buffalo and Rambo tried to say Atheism is better because it makes them more happy than when they were Mormons. But that doesn't help particularly since there are LDS who would say the exact opposite. Perhaps convictions religious or anti-religious aren't the factor that brings them happiness at all.
Mad Viking wrote:Me neither. Does it have to? Does the idea of us all being arbitrarily judged and punished for eternity promote love?
I have already explained why I see the promotion of love in paramount in Mormonism. I have yet to see anyone who is atheist address that. Unity is brought about, in my mind due to atonement. Indeed that is how I would define the word. Coming from the same place doesn't do the same because obviously we have families who hate each other, for instance. So I wasn't sure your point at all.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Gadianton wrote:Surely we could figure out some way to bake a chocolate cake without the atonement, but could we really bake one that tastes just so good that everyone would love it? I don't think so. Atonement adds such rich, chocolaty flavor to any cake, such moist chewiness, that I daresay there is nothing greater.
Cake ain't my thing. I suppose with this you could be saying love and unity isn't so great in your eyes as it is in mine. Some people may actually love to promote disunity, hate, and a hope for continued war and battle.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
Stem wrote:Surely we could figure out some way to get along and associate without the atonement, but could we really get over all the personal quibbles and all the personal assaults without it? I don't think so. Atonement adds such depth, and such meaning to unity I daresay there is nothing greater.
Surely we could figure out some way to bake a chocolate cake without the atonement, but could we really bake one that tastes just so good that everyone would love it? I don't think so. Atonement adds such rich, chocolaty flavor to any cake, such moist chewiness, that I daresay there is nothing greater.
And as I wipe off the Coke Zero that just got spurted on my monitor, I wonder to what degree I enjoyed reading Gadianton's comment just now, and to what extent I resent it.
Reading through this thread brought me immediately to the Pensees,
"What a chimaera then is man, what a novelty, what a monster, what chaos, what a subject of contradiction, what a prodigy! Judge of all things, yet an imbecile earth worm; depository of truth, yet a sewer of uncertainty and error; pride and refuse of the universe. Who shall resolve this tangle?"
A pragmatic wager, perhaps, to maximize one's happiness? Are there any gambling men and women out there?
Suppose that, at the end of individual human life, nothing remains but the cold, dark grave. Beyond that there is the impending heat death of the universe.
All we really possess of ourselves then, are choices. Choices relative to the individual. Maximum individual happiness. Maximum collective happiness? Someone could go out with guns blazing and impact millions of lives (for good or ill) or die in an alley in a pool of their own vomit. Will it matter? Maybe for a while people will remember your name.
Atheist and Theist alike can find reasons to live a maximum life or a minimum life. With God one has access to the Absolute Truth. Without God one has access to the Absolute End of the Universe.
Quibble about it as much as you like.
But suppose Heaven/Judgement awaits. The prospect of Eternity neccessarily presupposes one to laziness? Hellfire awaits and suddenly one is motivated to action? Not a genuine appraisal of the situation.
What excuse do you have to live a maximum life? How will you relate to the world around you? How will you define good and evil, if indeed good and evil there be?
Given these odds, I choose the inexplicable search for God. To find a way to exceed the sum of human experience. Fantasy? Perhaps. Death will decide that. But in the mean, I will strive for access to that Absolute Truth, as problematic as it may now seem to me.
Given these odds, I choose the inexplicable search for God. To find a way to exceed the sum of human experience. Fantasy? Perhaps. Death will decide that. But in the mean, I will strive for access to that Absolute Truth, as problematic as it may now seem to me.
N
Choosing the religious life might be the better option if you don't want to take any risks at all. Say there is a Mormon god then all the exmormons on here might be a little screwed. They probably won't make it to the CK. However; I am 99.99999% sure there isn't a Mormon god or a god for that matter. I am willing to take those odds and live my life how I want.
So if the atheist is right he/she gets to live the life they want and the religious person follows some sort of belief system with a bunch of rules. They both die and neither live again.
If the religious person is right then the atheist person is a little screwed and so is all the other religions.
Neginoth wrote:Given these odds, I choose the inexplicable search for God. To find a way to exceed the sum of human experience. Fantasy? Perhaps. Death will decide that. But in the mean, I will strive for access to that Absolute Truth, as problematic as it may now seem to me.
N
I appreciate your thoughts.
Love ya tons, Stem
I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.