tana39 wrote:Nicely done Mr. DrW. You remind me of a friend I have/had on another MSG board.
I wonder what classification a person would be assigned who didn't believe in Deity yet still did subscribe to some form of universal consciousness?
A wishful thinker?
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
Mad Viking wrote:Atheist = lack of belief in god(s) Agnostic = lack of knowledge of the existence of god(s)
The difference is whether we're talking about knowledge and belief. That is why you'll find people who describe themselves as both. For example, I'm an agnostic atheist. I don't know whether there is a god or not and I don't believe there is.
Mad Viking,
If I understand correctly, according to your model based on the meaning and derivation of words atheist and agnostic, it would seem that if there can be agnostic atheists (as you point out), then theists can (I would say must) also be agnostic.
My guess is that few theists would claim the title, because it has come to represent one who is largely indifferent as to whether there is a God or not.
What do you say? Because they have no real knowledge, are faithful theists who believe in an unseen God actually agnostics as well?
And if they are, who has the courage to tell them so?
You've accurately described my model. It's my experience that most theists WON'T admit that they don't know even though it is clear they don't when you engage them. It's not my problem if they don't understand the terms correctly. I tell them when given the opportunity.
An agnostic theist is one who doesn't know if God exists but believes one does.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
Mad Viking wrote: It's my experience that most theists WON'T admit that they don't know even though it is clear they don't when you engage them.
Could you elaborate on this a little? (In an attempt at clarity, I am not questioning your contribution, I am simply asking for clarity so I can try to understand your thoughts better.)
An agnostic theist is one who doesn't know if God exists but believes one does.
Using your definition (Not sure that I would share it, I would like to chew on it for a bit), I would say the very large majority of believer's that I know would fit your definition.
Anyway, thanks for sharing what I believe to be a very interesting post.
Mad Viking wrote: It's my experience that most theists WON'T admit that they don't know even though it is clear they don't when you engage them.
Could you elaborate on this a little? (In an attempt at clarity, I am not questioning your contribution, I am simply asking for clarity so I can try to understand your thoughts better.)
An agnostic theist is one who doesn't know if God exists but believes one does.
Using your definition (Not sure that I would share it, I would like to chew on it for a bit), I would say the very large majority of believer's that I know would fit your definition.
Anyway, thanks for sharing what I believe to be a very interesting post.
tana39 wrote: I agree. But that term could probably be applied in some form to all disciplines
Oh? How so... Please provide context.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.
Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
"Others cannot endure their own littleness unless they can translate it into meaningfulness on the largest possible level." ~ Ernest Becker "Whether you think of it as heavenly or as earthly, if you love life immortality is no consolation for death." ~ Simone de Beauvoir
To me... an "Atheist" is one who does not profess a "faith" in deities (and usually thinks they are silly). "Atheism", doesn't exist. Atheism seems to be a conversation deists have as to how non-believers are wrong, or view science in their terms, namely as an alternative religion to theist traditions.