Question for the Atheist

[_Scottie]

There was a quote once that went something like this...

An atheist disbelieves in just as many gods as a theist, save one.

[_DrW]

Nicely done Mr. DrW. You remind me of a friend I have/had on another MSG board.

That could be me alright. As I recall, Capt'n, you are an accomplished blue water sailor with a very nice boat, an attractive first mate, and a library loaded with photos and stories of adventure on the high seas.

I wonder what classification a person would be assigned who didn't believe in Deity yet still did subscribe to some form of universal consciousness?

As to your question, I suppose that if an individual believed that this universal consciousness was not a personal God, did not require worship and would not consign one to heaven or hell upon one's departure from this life, then Christians would probably consider this individual to be agnostic.

(By the Mad Viking's classification system, which you really can't argue with, such an individual may even be considered an atheist.)

Whether one is an atheist, an agnostic or a theist depends on what god is being discussed at the time. Most folks today would be classed as atheists when it comes to the Greek Pantheon, for example. However, I would say that in your case, a little prayer to Poseidon now and then is completely understandable, especially when the gale is howling in the wires and the waves exceed 20 feet and are starting to break in the wind.

[Guest]

Good afternoon MV

Good afternoon to you.

It's my experience that most theists WON'T admit that they don't know even though it is clear they don't when you engage them.

Could you elaborate on this a little? (In an attempt at clarity, I am not questioning your contribution, I am simply asking for clarity so I can try to understand your thoughts better.)

I'll try. It has been my experience that when I discuss these matter with "believers" that they claim to know that their god exists. This usually happens after I admit that while I don't believe that their god exists, I don't know that to be the case. Their response is usually along the lines of claiming that they in fact do know that he does. As the conversation advances it becomes clear to me that they are conflating their strongly held belief to be knowledge. I won't speculate as to why they do this. Not all believers do this.

An agnostic theist is one who doesn't know if God exists but believes one does.

Using your definition (Not sure that I would share it, I would like to chew on it for a bit), I would say the very large majority of believer's that I know would fit your definition.

Anyway, thanks for sharing what I believe to be a very interesting post.

Peace,
Ceeboo

I would agree that in reality, EVERYONE is actually agnostic in that they don't know whether god(s) exist. However, I think we're discussing what people claim to be. Which, may not coincide with what they actually are. It is also my position that MANY people misuse the terms "agnostic" and "atheist". I'm OK if I'm in the minority in that view (Or, if I stand alone). I hope I was able to address your points. Let me know if I've failed in that regard.

[_Mad Viking]

I wonder what classification a person would be assigned who didn't believe in Deity yet still did subscribe to some form of universal consciousness?

I'd have to understand what a "universal consciousness" is before I could even begin to talk about it. What is that?

[_Ceeboo]

I'll try. It has been my experience that when I discuss these matter with "believers" that they claim to know that their god exists. This usually happens after I admit that while I don't believe that their god exists, I don't know that to be the case. Their response is usually along the lines of claiming that they in fact do know that he does. As the conversation advances it becomes clear to me that they are conflating their strongly held belief to be knowledge.

Understood (Thanks)

I won't speculate as to why they do this.

Nor will I.

Not all believers do this.

More than fair. (Now that you have been kind enough to clarify for my benefit, I would agree that some do indeed do this)

I would agree that in reality, EVERYONE is actually agnostic in that they don't know whether god(s) exist.

Interesting point (Another one I would like to digest a little longer)

However, I think we're discussing what people claim to be. Which, may not coincide with what they actually are.

Indeed

It is also my position that MANY people misuse the terms "agnostic" and "atheist".

Maybe? (Or maybe it simply goes back to the very purpose of this thread in that it seems people hold different meanings of the words. I don't claim to know, thus the thread) :)

I hope I was able to address your points. Let me know if I've failed in that regard.

Yes, you did address them, clarified them, and were most generous in doing so. (Thanks!)

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_EAllusion]

A rejection of belief in gods. Virtually all contemporary atheists, at least American ones, self-define as not believing in gods.

[_JAK]

Hello people,

I just returned home from a delicious evening out that involved the gorgeous bride, a rather large T-Bone, a few cold Heineken's, and the enjoyable company of three other couples. (We have all been friends for some time)

Among the many things that were discussed, the topic of Atheism came up (Of the 8 of us that were there, 3 are Atheist)

As we all offered our thoughts on the subject of Atheism, it became clear that we couldn't even agree on what the word (Atheism) means (Perhaps what was most baffling to me was that the 3 who were Atheist didn't/couldn't seem to agree on the most simple explanation of what the word represents)

Soooo, I thought I would ask my Atheist friends here:

How would you describe what it means to be an Atheist?

for what it's worth, I have long understood (Perhaps wrong?) that an Atheist lacks the belief in a God/Creator.

What say you?

Thanks in advance for the replies.

Peace,
Ceeboo

It’s not surprising that your three atheists could not agree. The analysis is not quite as simplistic is it is generally intended by any single person using the term.

See what happens here and the complexity which could generate disagreement: Atheism

JAK

[_Bond James Bond]

Theist: stamp collector
Atheist: Not stamp collector

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

I seriously don't understand how someone can't understand what Atheist means. I mean... It's right there. The word. You have "theist". And then you have "atheist".

I'm mystified by someone who is confused over the meaning of a word that's so clear. I don't get it.

[_EAllusion]

Two reasons Doc:

1) A large population of self-described atheists who use the term this way is a relatively new thing. It describes contemporary atheists nicely, but the term has a complicated etymological history. It wasn't that long ago the term was a synonym for wicked for reasons that should be obvious.

2) Religious believers have a vested interest in defining atheism in terms of strong atheism (often with absolute certainty!) because they feel that is a weaker position to attack. I've seen many a Christian use this definition to marginalize and stigmatize atheists as extreme and irrational. Agnostic then gets defined as a sort of wishy-washy uncertainty. This removes the basic position that belief in gods is not reasonable off the table of discussion. And so the strongest position an atheist can take is never even thought about. Either you know no god exists with hardcore certainty or you're just unsure and possibly confused. Simple, really.