Romney Isn?????t Christian, and That?????s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

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_Jason Bourne
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Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _Jason Bourne »

From Business Week:

Not and unreasonable article:
By Jeffrey Goldberg
Oct. 25 (Bloomberg) -- Robert Jeffress, a prominent Southern Baptist pastor who supports Texas Governor Rick Perry for president, provoked a predictable uproar this month when he labeled the Mormon faith of one of Perry’s rivals, Mitt Romney, a non-Christian “cult,” and suggested that Romney’s beliefs should disqualify him for Christian support.
Jeffress was widely censured for his intolerance, but ritualized condemnation won’t stop such anti-Mormon eruptions between now and next November should Romney win the Republican nomination.
One reason why is that Mormonism isn’t, in fact, Christian. Today’s Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints doesn’t resemble a cult in any meaningful way. But its relationship to Christianity is similar to Christianity’s relationship to Judaism.
Christianity grew from Judaism, but it soon distanced itself in fairly dispositive ways (that whole business about God having a son, for example). Mormonism reached escape velocity from Christianity virtually at the moment of its creation. Richard Land, a leader of the Southern Baptist Convention, told me that in his view, most Mormons are “socially and culturally Christian,” but theologically they are a thing apart.
Just so we’re clear, I couldn’t care less whether Mormons are Christian, for two reasons: 1) I’m Jewish, so both Christianity and Mormonism (not to mention Islam) are a bit too arriviste for my taste; and 2) religious tests for public office are profoundly un-American. It says so in Article VI of the Constitution: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
Perfectly American
The New York Sun noted in a recent editorial that “the religious test clause is the most emphatic statement in the entire constitution. ‘No … ever … any,’ is the way the Founders put it.” It’s perfectly American to support for public office qualified Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses and Lubavitchers and Druids, and even -- perish the thought -- atheists. (Although we will sooner have a Wiccan as president than a self-declared atheist, except if that atheist has a plausible jobs plan.)
Neither does Mormonism offend me aesthetically. I don’t particularly care about what secular culture -- on Broadway and off -- sees as evidence of its essential ridiculousness: the early dalliance with polygamy; the belief that every righteous Mormon gets his own planet; the sacred underwear; the off-putting absence of both acne and irony among Mormon youths. Christians believe in a virgin birth, after all, and members of my faith remove the foreskins from 8-day-old boys, just as our Bronze Age ancestors did (which bothers me not at all).
Theological Honesty
Mormons themselves contend that “Christ is at the center of our worship, study, service and faith,” as a statement released by the church after Jeffress’s comment put it.
But theological honesty demands that we recognize that Romney would be the first president to be so far outside the Christian denominational mainstream.
There is much in Mormonism that stands in opposition to Christian doctrine, including the belief that the Book of Mormon completes the Christian Bible. Christianity had an established creed about 1,500 years before Joseph Smith appeared in upstate New York with a new truth, codified in the Book of Mormon, which he said was revealed to him by an angel named Moroni.
“The Nicene Creed and the Apostles’ Creed settled the basic ideas of Christianity,” said Michael Cromartie, an evangelical who is vice president of the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington. “The canon was closed, and then Joseph Smith comes along and says that there’s a new book, an extra-biblical addition to the agreed-upon canon.”
An Ontological Gap
Nothing in Mormonism is quite as alien to Christian thought as the core assertion that God and man are of the same species.
“This is a canonical belief of Mormons, and it stands in radical opposition to the beliefs of the monotheistic religions,” Richard J. Mouw, the president of the evangelical Fuller Theological Seminary in California, told me. “Your people” -- that is, Jews -- “and my people would say that the fundamental sin here from the biblical point of view is that God is God and we’re not. There’s an ontological gap between creator and creation.”
Mouw, who is a leader in the deepening dialogue between evangelical Christian and Mormon theologians, said he believes that many Mormons are moving toward more Christ-centered modes of worship. The Mormons who, in the Salt Lake City vernacular, tend to “go planetary” -- who embrace some of Mormonism’s more idiosyncratic folk beliefs -- are dwindling in number. But Mouw said he isn’t ready to accept Mormonism as branch of Christianity.
What Really Matters
How much does this theological dispute matter? Among Republicans, probably not that much in the end. Land, of the Southern Baptist Convention, suggests that evangelical voters are pragmatic, and highly motivated: “Do not underestimate Barack Obama’s ability to unite social conservatives around a candidate,” he said.
But here’s a prediction: If Romney wins the nomination, we will see a rush of anti-Mormon propaganda -- generated by secular liberals, not evangelicals. Anti- Romney leftists, the sort of people who would be loath to utter an unfavorable word about Islamic doctrine, will expend a great deal of energy and money bringing to light the most peculiar aspects of Mormon theology and practice, in an effort to convince evangelicals that the man leading the Republican Party is a harebrained heathen.
When confronted by such questions about his religion, Romney shouldn’t defend its doctrines. He should defend the right of a Mormon to be president. And those Mormons drafted to defend their faith on the political battlefield shouldn’t argue that they are merely misconstrued Christians, a claim that won’t fly with pivotal Christian constituencies. Instead, they should assert that theirs is a legitimate and moral system of belief, and that a country that elected a black man named Barack Hussein Obama as president is certainly ready to elect an adherent of what Land calls the fourth Abrahamic faith.
(Jeffrey Goldberg is a Bloomberg View columnist and a national correspondent for the Atlantic. The opinions expressed are his own.)
_Hoops
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _Hoops »

Except the constitution is supposed to constrain government, not private citizens.

If I choose to support candidates who I believe are Christian to the exclusion of others, that doesn't make me any less American than those who choose to exclude Christians (or religionists) because they are Christians. Like some on this very board.
_bcspace
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _bcspace »

It is true that we are not traditional or creedal christians. Those were established some hundreds of years after Christ. We are the restoration of the original Orthodox Christianity that Jesus and the apostles set up.

I agree with his prediction.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Equality
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _Equality »

We are the restoration of the original Orthodox Christianity that Jesus and the apostles set up.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
"The Church is authoritarian, tribal, provincial, and founded on a loosely biblical racist frontier sex cult."--Juggler Vain
"The LDS church is the Amway of religions. Even with all the soap they sell, they still manage to come away smelling dirty."--Some Schmo
_bcspace
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _bcspace »

We are the restoration of the original Orthodox Christianity that Jesus and the apostles set up.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!
Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


Interesting how the early Orthodox Christians believed in Subordinationism and an anthropomorphic God as opposed to a trinity heresy. They also believe in degrees of salvation and the preaching of the gospel to the spirits of the dead. The Deification of man is also part of their theology. In fact:

"One can think what one wants of this doctrine of progressive deification, but one thing is certain: with this anthropology Joseph Smith is closer to the view of man held by the Ancient Church than the precursors of the Augustinian doctrine of original sin were, who considered the thought of such a substantial connection between God and man as the heresy, par excellence." Benz, E.W., Imago Dei: Man in the Image of God, in Madsen, ed., Reflections on Mormonism, 215-216
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Cardinal Biggles
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _Cardinal Biggles »

Hoops wrote:Except the constitution is supposed to constrain government, not private citizens.

If I choose to support candidates who I believe are Christian to the exclusion of others, that doesn't make me any less American than those who choose to exclude Christians (or religionists) because they are Christians. Like some on this very board.


I agree. Though the government cannot (and should not) require a religious test (due to the need to separate church and state), it is expedient that private citizens evaluate the capacity of each candidate to engage in rational thought (so that they do not end up with an irrational leader). A candidate's personal beliefs--whether they be religious or otherwise--are significant indicia of that candidate's capacity to engage in rational thought.

ETA: The part about Mormonism being an "Abrahamic" faith is interesting. I wonder if most mainstream Christians would be willing to accept it as such.
_sock puppet
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _sock puppet »

Cardinal Biggles wrote:A candidate's personal beliefs--whether they be religious or otherwise--are significant indicia of that candidate's capacity to engage in rational thought.

True, and how a candidate uses his religion to try and shame people to vote for him, to prove to themselves that religion is not part of the calculus they make in deciding upon whom to vote for, is a vile use of religion if that candidate truly believes in that religion. If it is simply a lever to gain political advantage by one not truly a believer, then it seems to be another practice falling in the dust bin of typical uses of organized religion. Romney anyone?
_Hoops
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _Hoops »

Though the government cannot (and should not) require a religious test (due to the need to separate church and state),
I don't know anyone advocating otherwise. Do you?

it is expedient that private citizens evaluate the capacity of each candidate to engage in rational thought (so that they do not end up with an irrational leader). A candidate's personal beliefs--whether they be religious or otherwise--are significant indicia of that candidate's capacity to engage in rational thought.
Agreed.

ETA: The part about Mormonism being an "Abrahamic" faith is interesting. I wonder if most mainstream Christians would be willing to accept it as such.

I wouldn't.
_Buffalo
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _Buffalo »

bcspace wrote:It is true that we are not traditional or creedal christians. Those were established some hundreds of years after Christ. We are the restoration of the original Orthodox Christianity that Jesus and the apostles set up.

I agree with his prediction.


Mormonism bears very little resemblance to first century Christianity. It's more of an amalgamation of Judaic legalism, 19th century Methodism, and history revisionist Masonic lore.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_hatersinmyward
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Re: Romney Isn’t Christian, and That’s All Right: Jeffrey Goldbe

Post by _hatersinmyward »

Romney should not be elected as President. If he takes the Whitehouse, and doesn't turn the economy around he places Utah at risk for Terrorist Attacks masterminded by every Tom, Dick and Harry from God Knows Where. I know Romney supporters are against big Federal Spending, and having Terrorist Prevention Squads roaming the streets of Utah won't sit well in the minds of Mormon voters.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Oct 26, 2011 12:45 am, edited 2 times in total.
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