If LDS claims are true, Telestial K will be the 'it' place

[_bcspace]

I don't understand why it would make a difference when someone received the testimony of Jesus as long as he received it eventually... or, at least before the Final Judgement.

Because it takes more faith to accept it the first time imho. But we do know that God has said this life is the time to prepare to meet God (Book of Mormon).

Why would God want to discriminate against those who didn't receive a testimony of Jesus during mortality?

He doesn't. That is why the gospel is preached to those who have passed on, so we can all be judged by the same standard (1 Peter 4:6). That same standard however is that if given the opportunity in this life and we reject it, one cannot have eternal life in the CK. However, if one never had opportunity in this life, then one is still eligible for eternal life in the CK if ones accepts it in the afterlife.

Is God somehow constrained by law from allowing these of His children to inherit the CK?

Seems to be some law, yes. I think it makes perfect sense. The scriptures teach us that we are here to see if we will obey all of God's commands (Abraham 3). As mentioned above, we also know that this life is the time to prepare to meet God, not later. So I do agree that it is the perfect compromise between justice and mercy to reward those who accept at first opportunity with a chance for eternal life.

Even Christ himself alludes to this in his parable of the Sower.

I mean, I just don't get it. Suppose that someone is a kind, generous, righteous Buddhist his whole life, but when the missionaries find him in his old age, he's set in his ways, and understandably isn't interested in reading the Book of Mormon or learning about Jesus.

I don't know what would happen. We LDS don't have a definition or any revelation of what an opportunity or a chance is. My opinion is that it's different for everyone and is as varied as their individual circumstances. But I would agree that once one recognizes the Spirit testifying so strongly, then perhaps one's first opportunity has come.

But then suppose that someone is a fornicating, live-in-girlfriend-abusing, drug-abusing, non-child-support-paying thief until he's about 30 or 40, and upon being released from prison, he meets the missionaries, sees the light, repents, and changes his ways. He gets baptized, sealed in the temple, etc. But he has hurt a lot of people. His children and victims have suffered greatly due to his misdeeds, and he can't really make it up to them. He hasn't lived nearly as virtuous a life as the Buddhist. Yet, he'll be eligible for the CK.

Are you familiar with the brother of the prodigal son in Jesus' parable of the same name? You are sounding just like him.

Seems pretty twisted to me. It also seems to directly contradict the parable of the laborers:

The parable of the laborers doesn't conflict in the least.

[_Cardinal Biggles]

Seems pretty twisted to me. It also seems to directly contradict the parable of the laborers:

The parable of the laborers doesn't conflict in the least.

Yes it does! In the parable of the laborers, the laborers who start to work later are given the same pay (reward) as those who worked from the beginning! But according to LDS theology, those who accept Christ only in the afterlife are NOT given the same reward as those who accepted Him in mortality!

[_Cardinal Biggles]

I've heard this "as long as they didn't have a chance in mortality" business a lot, but I've never seen a scripture that supports it. Where does it come from? Where does it say that after you die you can't change your mind?

After all, knowing that there is an afterlife might change a lot of minds.

By implication, the various preaching the gospel in the afterlife verses in the New Testament and D&C. Something more specific would be:

71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they.......
74 Who received not the testimony of Jesus in the flesh, but afterwards received it.
D&C 76

The passages you quoted say NOTHING about denying someone the CK because they already "had a chance" in mortality. A reasonable interpretation of these passages is that everyone who accepts Jesus only in the afterlife is denied the CK, regardless of whether they "had a chance" to accept Him in mortality or not.

I do not accept an implication that the word "received not" means "had a chance to accept it and didn't." The plain meaning of "received not" includes "never heard it."

I maintain that I have not been shown that this "denied the CK only if they had a chance to accept in mortality" has ANY basis in LDS scripture.

[_Cardinal Biggles]

Are you familiar with the brother of the prodigal son in Jesus' parable of the same name? You are sounding just like him.

No, I don't have a problem with the reformed sinner ultimately inheriting the reward, like the brother in the parable had a problem with. I have a problem with the thorougly righteous but ultimately Christ-rejecting-in-mortality Buddhist being DENIED the reward. I think you're deliberately misinterpreting my meaning.

Let me put this another way: If the father of the prodigal son had told the responsible brother to go live in the servant's quarters while the irresponsbile son attended the feast, then yeah, you better believe that the brother would have been justifiably pissed! But that's not what happened in the parable. In the parable, both brothers were rewarded. Which is fine.

[_CaliforniaKid]

I always thought Dante's Limbo, the hangout of virtuous non-Christian philosophers, sounded like way more fun than his Paradise.

[_Nightlion]

Here is the scripture about those who WOULD HAVE RECEIVED IT WITH ALL THEIR HEARTS.

Doctrine and Covenants
Section 137
A vision given to Joseph Smith the Prophet, in the temple at Kirtland, Ohio, 21 January 1836 (see History of the Church, 2:380–81). The occasion was the administration of the ordinances of the endowment as far as they had then been revealed.

1–6, The Prophet sees his brother Alvin in the celestial kingdom; 7–9, The doctrine of salvation for the dead is revealed; 10, All children are saved in the celestial kingdom.

1 The heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.

2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;

3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.

4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.

5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;

6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;

8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

You know, the Lord informed me lately that I should stop thinking I am so much smarter than everyone else. Seems like I am damned until I humble myself to get over this bad habit. You guys are not making this easy for me. The lack of imagination here that fails of faith in God is loathsome. If the good Buddhist brought into this life a tenacity for finding God and having a relationship with him he would have got that rather than his own reward of a virtuous life.

I know that vulgarity rules in this life but why?

[_Mad Viking]

Because it takes more faith to accept it the first time imho.

Why do you think it takes more faith to accept it in this life?

[Anonymous]

I know that vulgarity rules in this life but why?

I don't know, Nightlion, but I wish I did.

Thanks for posting the scripture. This is the verse that sticks out to me:

9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.

I wouldn't worry about the lack of imagination in regards to religious issues that characterizes a portion of the posts on the board. There are also posters who have very interesting ideas and interest in belief, even if not all of them are believers.

Maybe there are even some Larry Darrells here, the protagonist of Somerset Maugham's novel The Razor Edge. Though much about that novel may seem hokey, or hopelessly Orientalist, I've always liked the description of Darrell as, "a deeply religious man who doesn't believe in God."

[_sock puppet]

Because it takes more faith to accept it the first time imho.

Why do you think it takes more faith to accept it in this life?

Because god must look for people who will draw conclusions and act in the absence of evidence rather than for those that base decisions on facts, evidence and logical deductions.

God is looking for such people for the CK because god and the CK are themselves not factually based.

God and the CK can best be summed up in the tagline for the 1985 movie Brazil, "it's only a state of mind".

Get it?