I exclude you out of respect...

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Yea, I am guilty of opening the doors for women of my generation. Most would think me a chimp if I did not open the door for them and let them go through first. I would be judged not to have manners. So, I am sexist on demand.

But for women of just me generation, I would go through first and let them open their own doors. I certainly don't want to be sexist.

So you're saying, you have have absolutely no gracious impulses of your own. You open doors for older women because they would judge you harshly if you don't. You don't open doors for young women because they would judge you sexist if you did. Whatever you do or don't do, you do or don't do on the basis of a perceived judgment. Be a man (if you can't be a gentleman) and do the right thing simply because it is the right thing. And if you don't know what the right thing is exactly, any woman on this thread can tell you exactly what it is.

[_Jersey Girl]

How old is Dallin Oaks? Anyone?

[_just me]

How old is Dallin Oaks? Anyone?

79 according to Wikipedia

[_Jersey Girl]

Thanks, BFF, I just got done looking at that article myself.

So, the guy says he is excluding women out of respect so they don't get their shoes soiled by the mud in front of the podium.

In the photos I just looked at, there is mud in front of the podium, then the strip of astroturf.

The man is 79 freaking years old.

Why me is exactly right about Oaks acting on the practices of his generation.

What is the main issue folks have with this?

[_why me]

What is the main issue folks have with this?

He's LDS.

[_why me]

So you're saying, you have have absolutely no gracious impulses of your own. You open doors for older women because they would judge you harshly if you don't. You don't open doors for young women because they would judge you sexist if you did. Whatever you do or don't do, you do or don't do on the basis of a perceived judgment. Be a man (if you can't be a gentleman) and do the right thing simply because it is the right thing. And if you don't know what the right thing is exactly, any woman on this thread can tell you exactly what it is.

My generation or older I would hold the door open and treat them like a lady in other regards too. Now I am also getting up there and so whether or not I offer them my seat depends on my feelings on whether or not I want to stand. But I was taught to be a gentleman when it came to girls when I was a boy.

There was a clear distinction in treatment when I was a boy. I was also taught never to hit a girl or never hit someone with glasses. Not bad when we consider domestic violence today.

But with just me's generation or with MsJack's generation, they don't expect any special treatment from the guy unless it is from their main squeeze and that it conditional. Too bad...for them and for the woman of their generation.

[_Jersey Girl]

What is the main issue folks have with this?

He's LDS.

Well...that's close to what I was thinking but let me explain. First, let me say that I am literally sick and tired, so this might not make sense.

Dallin Oaks is LDS. Yup. Mormonism is a Patriarchal religion, is it not?

Dallin Oaks is also 79 years old. He comes from a generation of men that treated women differently than women are treated in current times.

Why rag on the guy for being what he authentically IS?

Is it so offensive for some older gentleman to exclude women from shoveling dirt in order to keep their shoes out of fricking mud?

Did any of the women who were present bitch about this? If not, why not?

If they accepted what he said, then what business is it of ours to criticize?

If they remained silent when they really wanted to challenge his statement, then whose passive aggressive fault is that?

If the women were offended by his remarks and wanted to take part in turning over the dirt, they had mouths. They could easily have said, "Oh Elder Oaks, I don't mind at all, hand me a shovel!"

Is it tradition that only males break ground at such temple ceremonies? If so, then what is the problem?

Was it just this one ceremony where it was windy/rainy that women were exempted on account of the weather?

I'm not getting what the big hairy deal is on this one.

How many people on this board have criticized the living/traveling conditions of the pioneer families who went West in winter?

That's not okay but it's also not okay for Oaks to extend a courtesy?

What the hell IS okay?


(Did any of this make sense? :-)

[_moksha]

He failed to throw is cloak on the mud so that the delicate feet of yon maidens could remain unsullied. Where was the chivalry there Why Me?

It seems it is not good to be a gentleman these days. I suppose that he should've invited some sisters to pick up a shovel in their sunday finest complete with dresses or skirts, walk to the site in their nice sunday shoes, and shovel some mud. But instead he was a gentleman and allowed the ladies not to get their shoes dirty.

What a terrible guy.

I doubt that any of the LDS officials came dressed for the purpose of shoveling dirt. Even if this had been a white glove ceremony in a tea room, only the men and boys would have been asked to participate.

[_MsJack]

But with just me's generation or with MsJack's generation, they don't expect any special treatment from the guy unless it is from their main squeeze and that it conditional. Too bad...for them and for the woman of their generation.

Oh for crying out loud, why me. I said this issue rated a "meh" on my scale of things I care about. Why the hell do you keep dragging me into this?

No, I don't expect random men I don't know to do special things for me. I don't give them grief if they do, but I don't expect it. Let's see, what would I rather do: (A) Vote, hold a career, get an education, have paid maternity leave, have the option of ordination, be able to read books and articles in gender-inclusive language, or (B) Have men trip over themselves doing trivial nice things for me like holding open doors. Hmm. Tough choice.

You wanna feel sorry for my generation, knock yourself out. I'm too busy not acting like a housepet to care.

[_Yoda]

Your thoughts here make PERFECT sense, Jersey Girl. I was thinking the exact same thing. ;-)

What is the main issue folks have with this?

He's LDS.

Well...that's close to what I was thinking but let me explain. First, let me say that I am literally sick and tired, so this might not make sense.

Dallin Oaks is LDS. Yup. Mormonism is a Patriarchal religion, is it not?

Dallin Oaks is also 79 years old. He comes from a generation of men that treated women differently that women are treated in current times.

Why rag on the guy for being what he authentically IS?

Is it so offensive for some older gentleman to exclude women from shoveling dirt in order to keep their shoes out of fricking mud?

Did any of the women who were present bitch about this? If not, why not?

If they accepted what he said, then what business is it of ours to criticize?

If they remained silent when they really wanted to challenge his statement, then whose passive aggressive fault is that?

If the women were offended by his remarks and wanted to take part in turning over the dirt, they had mouths. They could easily have said, "Oh Elder Oaks, I don't mind at all, hand me a shovel!"

Is it tradition that only males break ground at such temple ceremonies? If so, then what is the problem?

Was it just this one ceremony where it was windy/rainy that women were exempted on account of the weather?

I'm not getting what the big hairy deal is on this one.

How many people on this board have criticized the living/traveling conditions of the pioneer families who went West in winter?

That's not okay but it's also not okay for Oaks to extend a courtesy?

What the hell IS okay?


(Did any of this make sense? :-)