Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

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_DrW
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _DrW »

constantinople wrote:Miller, from the second link posted (emphasis added):

As an outspoken defender of evolution, I am often challenged by those who assume that if science can demonstrate the natural origins of our species, which it surely has, then God should be abandoned. But the Deity they reject so easily is not the one I know. To be threatened by science, God would have to be nothing more than a placeholder for human ignorance. This is the God of the creationists, of the “intelligent design” movement, of those who seek their God in darkness. What we have not found and do not yet understand becomes their best—indeed their only—evidence for faith. As a Christian, I find the flow of this logic particularly depressing. Not only does it teach us to fear the acquisition of knowledge (which might at any time disprove belief), but it also suggests that God dwells only in the shadows of our understanding. I suggest that if God is real, we should be able to find him somewhere else—in the bright light of human knowledge, spiritual and scientific.”

And what a light that is. Science places us in an extraordinary universe, a place where stars and even galaxies continue to be born, where matter itself comes alive, evolves, and rises to each new challenge of its richly changing environment. We live in a world literally bursting with creative evolutionary potential, and it is quite reasonable to ask why that is so. To a person of faith, the answer to that question is God.”


“The categorical mistake of the atheist is to assume that God is natural, and therefore within the realm of science to investigate and test. By making God an ordinary part of the natural world, and failing to find Him there, they conclude that He does not exist. But God is not and cannot be part of nature. God is the reason for nature, the explanation of why things are. He is the answer to existence, not part of existence itself.

There is great naiveté in the assumption that our presence in the universe is self-explanatory, and does not require an answer. Many who reject God imply that reasons for the existence of an orderly natural world are not to be sought. The laws of nature exist simply because they are, or because we find ourselves in one of countless “multiverses” in which ours happens to be hospitable to life. No need to ask why this should be so, or inquire as to the mechanism that generates so many worlds. The curiosity of the theist who embraces science is greater, not less, because he seeks an explanation that is deeper than science can provide, an explanation that includes science, but then seeks the ultimate reason why the logic of science should work so well. The hypothesis of God comes not from a rejection of science, but from a penetrating curiosity that asks why science is even possible, and why the laws of nature exist for us to discover.


Since there is absolutely no evidence on which to base this silliness, how is this position any different from the childish claim, "Well my imaginary friend is better than your science?"
Last edited by Guest on Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
David Hume: "---Mistakes in philosophy are merely ridiculous, those in religion are dangerous."

DrW: "Mistakes in science are learning opportunities and are eventually corrected."
_Mad Viking
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Mad Viking »

constantinople wrote:Miller, from the second link posted (emphasis added):

As an outspoken defender of evolution, I am often challenged by those who assume that if science can demonstrate the natural origins of our species, which it surely has, then God should be abandoned. But the Deity they reject so easily is not the one I know. To be threatened by science, God would have to be nothing more than a placeholder for human ignorance. This is the God of the creationists, of the “intelligent design” movement, of those who seek their God in darkness. What we have not found and do not yet understand becomes their best—indeed their only—evidence for faith. As a Christian, I find the flow of this logic particularly depressing. Not only does it teach us to fear the acquisition of knowledge (which might at any time disprove belief), but it also suggests that God dwells only in the shadows of our understanding. I suggest that if God is real, we should be able to find him somewhere else—in the bright light of human knowledge, spiritual and scientific.”

And what a light that is. Science places us in an extraordinary universe, a place where stars and even galaxies continue to be born, where matter itself comes alive, evolves, and rises to each new challenge of its richly changing environment. We live in a world literally bursting with creative evolutionary potential, and it is quite reasonable to ask why that is so. To a person of faith, the answer to that question is God.”


“The categorical mistake of the atheist is to assume that God is natural, and therefore within the realm of science to investigate and test. By making God an ordinary part of the natural world, and failing to find Him there, they conclude that He does not exist. But God is not and cannot be part of nature. God is the reason for nature, the explanation of why things are. He is the answer to existence, not part of existence itself.

There is great naiveté in the assumption that our presence in the universe is self-explanatory, and does not require an answer. Many who reject God imply that reasons for the existence of an orderly natural world are not to be sought. The laws of nature exist simply because they are, or because we find ourselves in one of countless “multiverses” in which ours happens to be hospitable to life. No need to ask why this should be so, or inquire as to the mechanism that generates so many worlds. The curiosity of the theist who embraces science is greater, not less, because he seeks an explanation that is deeper than science can provide, an explanation that includes science, but then seeks the ultimate reason why the logic of science should work so well. The hypothesis of God comes not from a rejection of science, but from a penetrating curiosity that asks why science is even possible, and why the laws of nature exist for us to discover.

Are you serious? That excerpt was loaded full of strawmen and special pleading. Oh yeah... and some arguing from ignorance for good measure.
"Sire, I had no need of that hypothesis" - Laplace
_Hughes
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Hughes »

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Hughes wrote:Both are propositions based on ones belief or faith

Unpack this please, I could interpret this as belief or faith as an either/or choice, or I could read that as saying belief and faith are the same thing.


A statement of faith, or a statement of belief are essentially the same things (things not demonstrable).

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Hughes wrote:The more we know, the more we don't know, because we discover more and more to learn.

I’m not sure I can agree to this, facts that we don’t know about still obtain, even though we can’t acknowledge them.


The more we discover about our universe, the more we learn what is available to learn. As our knowledge increases, our realization of how very little we actually do know in relation to the vast amounts of things to yet discover about the universe. For example, knowing Newtonian physics was good, but knowing Quantum mechanics brought about even more to the table that we didn't even know existed before.

MrStakhanovite wrote:
Hughes wrote:The believer in materialism and the believer in theism both have the equal starting points

Materialism and Theism are not mutually exclusive, one can be both.

Hughes wrote:in that neither is demonstrable using science. That is all.

Hmmmm. If we say that Naturalistic Universe and a Theocentric Universe have the same prior probability, we still could find reasons to favor one over the other by assessment of posterior evidence.

I think I know what you mean, but explain how posterior evidence is used in this circumstance.
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Gadianton »

Going "God of the Gaps" on us eh Hughes? I for one am happy that science didn't end with Newton, imagine how boring the Discovery channel would be if it did.

As the gaps in our understanding increase, the probability of your supernatural entity of choice secretely running the whloe show also increase.

You do have to admit that as soon as we declare EiMC2 tentative rather than fact, it's just a little more likely that the Jolly Green Giant holds the secret to super-light speed within his beanstalk, right?
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Hughes »

Gadianton wrote:Going "God of the Gaps" on us eh Hughes? I for one am happy that science didn't end with Newton, imagine how boring the Discovery channel would be if it did.

As the gaps in our understanding increase, the probability of your supernatural entity of choice secretely running the whloe show also increase.

You do have to admit that as soon as we declare EiMC2 tentative rather than fact, it's just a little more likely that the Jolly Green Giant holds the secret to super-light speed within his beanstalk, right?


I don't know about secretly. Seems pretty plain to me.

Lately I've been thinking that the most profound evidence for God's existence is my own. My own awareness of my own consciousness. In other words, why am I who I am? Why do I peer out of these eyes? What causes me to experience things/feelings? Why do I exist?

An explanation of the bio/chemical structure and interactions, while interesting, don't answer these questions. The sense of self if you will, brings me the most evidence I need for God's existence. I understand this probably isn't persuasive to anyone, but that's ok. It's just something that has struck me lately.
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Some Schmo »

Hughes wrote: An explanation of the bio/chemical structure and interactions, while interesting, don't answer these questions.

Well, I think they do, but clearly, not satisfactorily for you.

Hughes wrote:Lately I've been thinking that the most profound evidence for God's existence is my own. My own awareness of my own consciousness. In other words, why am I who I am? Why do I peer out of these eyes? What causes me to experience things/feelings? Why do I exist?

...

The sense of self if you will, brings me the most evidence I need for God's existence. I understand this probably isn't persuasive to anyone, but that's ok. It's just something that has struck me lately.

Honestly, Hughes, I can really relate to this. I think about it often (not explaining it with god, mind you; just the profound mystery of it all). It's a major mind blow to think about the existence of everything, that there's something rather than nothing, and how my only real experience of it is through my own perception. It's enough to send you into an endless mental loop that's hard to break without a reboot.

But as I mentioned before, I'm not willing to fill it with an even bigger mystery. If your definition of god is existence and its related mystery, I believe in that god too. Think about it all the time.

It's the anthropomorphic/intervening/transcendent/magical/intelligent gods I have an issue with.
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Hughes »

Some Schmo wrote:
Hughes wrote: An explanation of the bio/chemical structure and interactions, while interesting, don't answer these questions.

Well, I think they do, but clearly, not satisfactorily for you.


Scientific explanations can't ever explain the greater purpose or why things exist, instead of not existing.

Some Schmo wrote:
Hughes wrote:Lately I've been thinking that the most profound evidence for God's existence is my own. My own awareness of my own consciousness. In other words, why am I who I am? Why do I peer out of these eyes? What causes me to experience things/feelings? Why do I exist?

...

The sense of self if you will, brings me the most evidence I need for God's existence. I understand this probably isn't persuasive to anyone, but that's ok. It's just something that has struck me lately.

Honestly, Hughes, I can really relate to this. I think about it often (not explaining it with god, mind you; just the profound mystery of it all). It's a major mind blow to think about the existence of everything, that there's something rather than nothing, and how my only real experience of it is through my own perception. It's enough to send you into an endless mental loop that's hard to break without a reboot.

But as I mentioned before, I'm not willing to fill it with an even bigger mystery. If your definition of god is existence and its related mystery, I believe in that god too. Think about it all the time.

It's the anthropomorphic/intervening/transcendent/magical/intelligent gods I have an issue with.


Thanks. Throughout time, man has interacted with God, and those interactions can't help but be explained in anthropomorphic terms. Though inadequate at times, it is what it is. I'd love a more detailed account, and with video please... ;-)
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Some Schmo »

Hughes wrote: Scientific explanations can't ever explain the greater purpose or why things exist, instead of not existing.

Science doesn't purport to explain "greater purpose." Your comment assumes there is one in the first place, yet there's no compelling reason for that assumption except to wish/hope it.

Hughes wrote: Throughout time, man has interacted with God, and those interactions can't help but be explained in anthropomorphic terms. Though inadequate at times, it is what it is.

Well, it seems much mythology amounted to anthropomorphizing things (water, fire, wind, the moon, stars, the sun, animals, etc.), but I bet you don't think those things actually have a mind, do you? We certainly don't take those stories literally. Most of them were discarded ages ago, and with good reason.

Or are you saying here that you don't consider god man-like?

Hughes wrote:I'd love a more detailed account, and with video please... ;-)

Heh... a video of my history with god?

The Gods of Schmo - A Journey of Non-Discovery

Join Some Schmo in this epic tale as he discusses his search for god, chronicles one disappointment after another, and decides that this holy grail is a simple legend that doesn't really exist...
God belief is for people who don't want to live life on the universe's terms.
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Gadianton »

hughes wrote:In other words, why am I who I am? Why do I peer out of these eyes? What causes me to experience things/feelings? Why do I exist?


And what are the respective answers given God?
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Re: Dr W please look at Des News article on Science and Religion

Post by _Hughes »

Some Schmo wrote:Science doesn't purport to explain "greater purpose." Your comment assumes there is one in the first place, yet there's no compelling reason for that assumption except to wish/hope it.


Right, that was my point. Science can't explain a greater purpose or even say there is one. It is a personal feeling of mine that there is one. It's right up there with why I exist?

Some Schmo wrote:Or are you saying here that you don't consider god man-like?


No. I'm not LDS. God is infinite.

Some Schmo wrote:The Gods of Schmo - A Journey of Non-Discovery

Join Some Schmo in this epic tale as he discusses his search for god, chronicles one disappointment after another, and decides that this holy grail is a simple legend that doesn't really exist...


I was thinking more along the lines of a video of the history of the Universe with all the details in slow mo... with a narrator.
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