For Nightlion - What is the fruit of the gospel you preach?

[_honorentheos]

Nightlion -

In another thread, you responded to me with this,

The Mormons will not hear me. The Christians will not hear me. I am too proud to beat the drum on the sidewalk. If I had money I would produce a fine and dramatic dispensation of the truth before the eyes of all nations. I am kept purposefully weak so i stumble into greater and greater things (great stuff not just The Apocalrock) that being too busy in any successful way would not allow. Seems my lot so far. Man! I want that to change.

I've seen the Apocalrock material and am not overwhelmed by it. The flowery prophet-talk on the board doesn't say much to me, either.

I'd like to ask you for two things, then.

First, what more do you have that isn't expressed in the Apocalrock material?

And second, let's suppose a person does follow and becomes equal to you in spirit, as you described it. What would the change in the person entail?

These are serious questions. I am not sure I could succinctly say what the fruit of your gospel might be other than pareidolia.

[_Nightlion]

1. My website: fireark.org linked in my sig. line contains my words rich and deep in its resources of doctrine, theology, insight, revelation, exhortation, history, contrast, irony, art, music, poetry, that is pinned on a hope in Christ that Zion shall come forth from the darkness of obscurity. I regret that it is all about me. I know of nothing better for a real and true Zion, that's it to date.

If you somehow missed the gospel of Jesus Christ that I preach daily then you are ignoring more than half of what I say. I am constrained by the language to use the denuded and hollow buzz words that ricochet harmlessly off the modern heart that is not penetrated.

Make no mistake I am an, END OF THE WORLD is at hand so get Zion or prepare for diein', preacher man. By overwhelming conceit man willfully ignores the obviousness of the hand of God to blaspheme his name constantly and not fear him in their pleasurable arrogance of a world consensus gone mad in deceitful denial of what easily reads off the abundance of well seen and wonderfully comprehended creation of all things. This causes, as it were, a pained and stunned silence to reign in heaven that awaits the just recompense of the utter destruction of this world by vengeful wrath and a burning recompense of fire. That the abominations of this gently adroit and softly floating excellent generation that will only kiss the back of its own hand in ever expanding lust of self adulation, might cease to affront the Majesty on High. This applies equally to both religious and irreligious living today. There are NONE that please God. All the overt wickedness of man sobers an eternity that holds it breath against this world's eminent extinction. And that for the just cause that Almighty God will not be mocked. How clueless the world remains. How blinded by the cunning arts of the devil.

2. The Apocalrock is only a sign of the times. A rather over-the-top clue to answer what more could the Lord do to wake up the world, if they would simply look and be clued in that undeniable proof is provided. Give proof a chance. That's all we are saying.

a. I teach the gospel of Jesus Christ correctly so that sanctification, a new heart, might, mind and strength is realized, so too is the exquisite knowledge of actually "knowing God", that brings the greatest joy possible to the human soul. This is achieved by the actual baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, which according to my experience and accomplished study must be done precisely right for a true gospel covenant to be entered into and sealed by the power of God. Such will manifest an abundance of the gifts and powers promised and realized down through the ages of scripture. This is the change one should expect from working the well documented process correctly. See that no hypocrisy, lies, pride or misunderstanding contaminate and disprove the results. I suppose that is what I am a resource against.
b. Nobody needs me to get this since the Restoration. I trust enough residual virtue remains even in a fallen LDS Church that true repentance can be reached if only the deceitfulness of pride comes off from the minds of many. NOBODY showed me the way. I would not live without it and stayed upon it with all my heart until I was drawn to it. Marvelously, and most miraculously and has continued with me astoundingly ever since. If any think that they must need me personally, well, try not to annoy me. I have little faith in man.
I am only half kidding here. I am your servant in the hope and promise of Christ's peace.
c. Those who receive the power of godliness have the power to build up and to redeem a real and true Zion for a refuge and protection from the vicious wrath of God to be poured out without mixture upon the inhabitants of this earth. (fill in here with all the familiar propheteering verbiage that you all know and love to hate....sword is bathed in heaven...ya know)
d. The culture of Zion will be of such abundant joy in the knowledge of the Lord and the salvation of our God from the contrast wretchedness of a world in open defiance against the Living God that the pains of witnessing the end of the world will be starkly bearable. At least such is my hope. We shall stand in an ARK of refuge for the sake of our humanity saving our souls in a state of grace against the unimaginable desolation and plagues sent to humble and punish humankind. For without the walls of Zion men shall surely curse God and die.
e. How much better it would have been if Christ's return had been cut short in righteousness. Before the Apostate Revolution crippled faith withal and men only grew in pride and arrogance rather than meekness and lowliness of heart before the Maker of men. All good has been thoroughly Satanized and undetectably so that good is evil and evil is good. Look at what you have done to my beloved Prophet Joseph. Stupid drunken bastards, eat another pound of your own flesh.

[_honorentheos]

Nightlion,

Thank you for the lengthy reply.

I would like to focus in on two things: this sentiment I quote from you below, as it seems to point to a tanglible result of achieving whatever it is that comes from "knowing God":

I teach the gospel of Jesus Christ correctly so that sanctification, a new heart, might, mind and strength is realized, so too is the exquisite knowledge of actually "knowing God", that brings the greatest joy possible to the human soul. This is achieved by the actual baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, which according to my experience and accomplished study must be done precisely right for a true gospel covenant to be entered into and sealed by the power of God. Such will manifest an abundance of the gifts and powers promised and realized down through the ages of scripture. This is the change one should expect from working the well documented process correctly.

And second:
There is a paragraph on page 26 of your book on the Apocalrock sightings that in effect condemns defining worthiness and even goes so far as to suggest that setting up a standard for determining worthiness is rooted in a desire to prey on people. It's the sighting of the hen and dog. I find the idea you expressed interesting, because I can't see how you fail to fall under the terms of your own definition here.

Perhaps you could explain the following:

- If you are not defining a path of worthiness, how exactly can you make the statements you do in the post above? What makes you the gateway through which no one has yet passed?

- Perhaps you wouldn't mind simply defining the well-documented path that leads to the change of heart you feel defines a person who has "come to Zion". If it's not a worthiness test, what is it?

[_Lucretia MacEvil]

Nightlion, you know I love you and admire your rhetoric ... you may be the 2nd American religious genius after Joseph Smith ... BUT ...

As I understand you, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Lord appointed Joseph Smith to restore his gospel, the church that resulted from the restoration has failed over the years and is no longer led by the Lord, and now the Lord has you (and only you?) to bring about his desires for this world. And he is intentionally keeping you weak. How is this God anything but impotent? He has created billions of spirit children, who he claims to love, and will not recover enough of them to even register the tiniest blip on the bar graph of eternity? And this makes HIM mad at US? He's supposed to be God. If he can't do better than this, why should we care? Why should we believe?

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion, you know I love you and admire your rhetoric ... you may be the 2nd American religious genius after Joseph Smith ... BUT ...

As I understand you, and please correct me if I'm wrong, the Lord appointed Joseph Smith to restore his gospel, the church that resulted from the restoration has failed over the years and is no longer led by the Lord, and now the Lord has you (and only you?) to bring about his desires for this world. And he is intentionally keeping you weak. How is this God anything but impotent? He has created billions of spirit children, who he claims to love, and will not recover enough of them to even register the tiniest blip on the bar graph of eternity? And this makes HIM mad at US? He's supposed to be God. If he can't do better than this, why should we care? Why should we believe?

Lol now come on, I am not going to break off my new effort to remain contrite before the Lord wherein I refrain from consolations of thinking myself some great mind in the mix. Realizing whether I rank highly intelligent or not matters little. Man is nothing and high ranking is still nothing. Nice to hear kind words though.

The Lord predicted making use of weak servants. He glories in showing his strength by confounding the world by weak and simple means. Always fun to hear GAs try to fit the weak servant profile with unlimited financial resources and millions of devoted friends who will do exactly what they say. Yep!

2 Cor. 12: 9
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

D&C 1: 19
19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

D&C 133: 58
58 To prepare the weak for those things which are coming on the earth, and for the Lord’s errand in the day when the weak shall confound the wise, and the little one become a strong nation, and two shall put their tens of thousands to flight.

In our day the little one (singular entity) will become a strong nation, when Zion is born at once. The earth is made to travail and bring forth her strength.

Moses was known as the meekest of all men and he conquered the greatest nation of earth in his day.

Joseph Smith an uneducated farm boy confounds a modern age after the Lord orchestrated the world to be raised and educated on scripture all funneled to the time of Joseph Smith and poof! the Gentiles reject the refreshing of the Lord and open the age of the Apostate Revolution that continues rampant today.

My life is rife with purposeful weakness from the womb. The Gentiles sinned against the Gospel. It is going to end badly. You need God to come off what? successful before you will show him respect? We are the ones doing poorly. You say it is God's fault. Sounds like political spin even militant demonizing.

You say he MUST love all and MUST save all or phooey. He said few there be that find it. All your thoughts betray a vile prejudice of deceitful window-dressing so as to make God the villain. Own your own villainy. 'tis the only path to peace.

[_Nightlion]

Nightlion,

Thank you for the lengthy reply.

I would like to focus in on two things: this sentiment I quote from you below, as it seems to point to a tanglible result of achieving whatever it is that comes from "knowing God":

I teach the gospel of Jesus Christ correctly so that sanctification, a new heart, might, mind and strength is realized, so too is the exquisite knowledge of actually "knowing God", that brings the greatest joy possible to the human soul. This is achieved by the actual baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost, which according to my experience and accomplished study must be done precisely right for a true gospel covenant to be entered into and sealed by the power of God. Such will manifest an abundance of the gifts and powers promised and realized down through the ages of scripture. This is the change one should expect from working the well documented process correctly.

"Man is that he might have joy." That joy is being made capable of knowing God. That knowledge increases as does the joy.
When you are born of God you have returned HOME. You are forevermore grounded to that new vine that never stops nurturing your heart, might, mind and strength so long as you live and keep God in all your thoughts.

It never matters what the world does from then on. They instinctively revile you and say all manner of evil against you falsely and seek to provoke you and return you to their world. It is a sad contemplation to reflect upon.
Without this great joy and the consolation of knowing what and where you are of you could not endure all that the world throws at you. You cannot realize what a heap of crap that amounts to after quite a few years.

And second:
There is a paragraph on page 26 of your book on the Apocalrock sightings that in effect condemns defining worthiness and even goes so far as to suggest that setting up a standard for determining worthiness is rooted in a desire to prey on people. It's the sighting of the hen and dog. I find the idea you expressed interesting, because I can't see how you fail to fall under the terms of your own definition here.

Perhaps you could explain the following:

- If you are not defining a path of worthiness, how exactly can you make the statements you do in the post above? What makes you the gateway through which no one has yet passed?

Here is what I wrote:

But the religions of today are more concerned about defining who is not worthy. And each splinter is another excuse for men to vaunt up themselves as more worthy than their brothers and sisters. None are contrite before the Lord. All practice worthiness and refuse to know the Lord who certainly convinces all saints of their unworthiness before him. A true saint remains contrite all his days. He has compassion for all others as God has had compassion for him though unworthy.
Those obsessed with being worthy and remaining worthy are hypocrites inescapably. They desire a standard of worthiness so that they might practice domination upon the weak. They preach by way of a priestcraft that seeks to perfect themselves in appearances. They will not submit to God neither will they bow before Christ’s scepter. This is human pride that always dominates and will not suffer the humble and contrite to lead. It is akin to witchcraft that always seeks its advantage over others. (page 25 The Vision of All: The Apocalrock)

It is the hypocrisy of holding up a creed of worthiness while deceitfully refusing to come unto Christ and be born of him and know the Lord. Each new group simply moves over a couple of spaces and sets up a slightly different worthiness (polygamy, EV's thank you Jesus, until the world is filled with men putting worthiness in a box and selling it to gain popularity, power, and riches and even better to get someone else to do all the work, evil 101)

You cannot impress me by believing LIKE me and paying me huge amounts of money expecting that I will warrant you worthy. Wont happen. Zion is schooled and knows that if the Lord does not do an actual visitation of power upon any individual they are none of his. Those who know the Lord never vaunt worthiness, or have to wonder IF they have the Spirit or not. I am saying that those who vaunt themselves worthy and establish it parameters are guilty of priestcrafts that hinder people from true repentance by giving them a false positive.

God's word says believe and ye are saved. Do you believe your Bible? Yes, thank you Jesus, you are saved. LDS worthiness interviews and recommends.
Do you pay a full and honest tithe, and do you sustain the leadership? Then you are pronounced WORTHY! The arrogance of men selling false hope.

As to who is worthy it remains for the Lord to say. For us it is always to smite upon our breast and say we are unworthy forever.

What gate am I? I have precise experience and studied competence that makes me understand the way and I also bear a responsibility to show the way but never do I become the way. If someone else does a better job of it do they become the way? If any way fails to realize the power of Christ's redemption falling upon a soul a conceiving them the sons and daughters of God it is not THE way.

Did I explain that well enough?

- Perhaps you wouldn't mind simply defining the well-documented path that leads to the change of heart you feel defines a person who has "come to Zion". If it's not a worthiness test, what is it?

[/quote]

In the Old Testament men were commanded to stay upon the Lord that he might remove the foreskin of their hearts and give them a new heart filled with the love of God. It was called to: Know The Lord. All those who failed to achieve this were considered still the children of Belial who refuse to know the Lord as were the sons of Eli.

When you are born into the kingdom you can SEE it down throughout the scriptures each time it is witnessed of. Moses sought to sanctify his people but they refused. Saul was given a new heart from God and prophesied among the prophets.

The Book of Mormon is filled with this gospel. Joseph Smith taught it correctly but failed to make certain that the people got it right. In my day the people were so far lost in darkness and hypocrisy that they could not relate to my getting the gospel right. They rejected it and have sinned against the gospel in open defiance since.

It is not a worthiness thing that you earn the right to. After all you can do to repent, staying upon the Lord day and night, taking no thought for your life while you seek the kingdom of God and his righteousness, is not making you worthy because if the Lord does not respond all is vain. The Lord makes you clean, heals you, sanctifies you. He is worthy. You receive the benefit of that worthiness. You do not become the worthiness. Worlds without end.

The intoxicating deception of handing out badges of worthiness to people who want them without faith enough to draw down upon themselves the worthiness of Christ sells well. Sells really well. A lie is the church of the devil.
Pick one, any lie, there is no God, that is a lie, that is the devil's church too.

[_honorentheos]

Hi Nightlion,

I think it's really semantics we're discussing and not any substantial difference.

If a person still has to do certain things in a correct way, including acknowledging their own unworthiness, in order to be born of fire and spirit - it still is more or less a worthiness test. It seems that making acknowledgment of one's own unworthiness part of the process doesn't exclude the person having to do this to become fit for mercy.

Also, let's supposed a few things from my own life for use as an illustration:

Let's suppose that I spend most of life more or less joyful. Which I in fact do. I'm pretty fortunate and acknowledge this, and try to share my good fortune with others when possible. I'm not rejected of the world as you say, but I don't see myself particularly enmeshed in any deeply materialistic or hedonistic beliefs or practices.

If we were to concur that God could be reduced down to the most simple terms where God and the laws of nature are more or less synonymous, I could even claim I keep this God in my thoughts most of the time. I have a sincere respect for life that comes from seeing our existence as an improbable miracle and live as best I can to fulfill my own existence while respecting and aiding other's fulfillment of their own as I can.

So - where is the problem? I doubt we could take our two hearts out and weigh them on the scale as in the Egyptian afterlife myth, but theoretically if we could I'm not so sure you have any more joy in life than I do. To be perfectly honest, I suspect in terms of simple, pure happiness and contentment with life I would have an edge.

Maybe if you could explain a bit more where we differ it would help illuminate the value of your message.

Thanks.

[_Nightlion]

Hi Nightlion,

I think it's really semantics we're discussing and not any substantial difference.

If a person still has to do certain things in a correct way, including acknowledging their own unworthiness, in order to be born of fire and spirit - it still is more or less a worthiness test. It seems that making acknowledgment of one's own unworthiness part of the process doesn't exclude the person having to do this to become fit for mercy.

Also, let's supposed a few things from my own life for use as an illustration:

Let's suppose that I spend most of life more or less joyful. Which I in fact do. I'm pretty fortunate and acknowledge this, and try to share my good fortune with others when possible. I'm not rejected of the world as you say, but I don't see myself particularly enmeshed in any deeply materialistic or hedonistic beliefs or practices.

If we were to somehow concur that God could be reduced down to the most simple terms where God and the laws of nature are more or less synonymous I could even claim I keep this God in my thoughts most of the time. I have a sincere respect for life that comes from seeing our existence as an improbable miracle and live as best I can to fulfill my own existence while respecting and aiding other's fulfillment of their own as I can.

So - where is the problem? I doubt we could take our two hearts out and weigh them on the scale as in the Egyptian afterlife myth, but theoretically if we could I'm not so sure you have any more joy in life than I do.

Maybe if you could explain a bit more where we differ it would help illuminate the value of your message.

Thanks.

Okay, and thanks for staying with this.

Hope this might show it is not semantics but a real difference.
With inoperable spiritually (every false way) the consensus for worthy is the end all and be all. No direct response from God is required or expected and deep down it is not desired so as not to upset the apple cart of a good life which is the joy of living in harmony with others, accepted, trusted, with an assurance of quality relationships.

With hypocrisy the appearances of righteousness will be much assumed celebrating the spirit this and the spirit that and even vaunted in pride without fear of detection because there is NO qualified judgment recognized that could call into question the righteousness they claim to own. Thank you Jesus(Bible)=thank you bishop(LDS priesthood authority)

Inoperable spirituality also includes the nature lovers who without pretense to righteousness celebrate the same religion as it were just not calling it that. They enjoy a credible life of respect and trust and good relationships abound with them. This sort can excuse themselves from the appearance of hypocrisy and tend to deny God entirely to scare away any chance of them being false.
Even to this extreme it is the same end all be all set of worthy consensus from this world only.

In operable spirituality where God is directly involved an exact worthy set is required and is precisely standardized across the board of spiritual documentation. This standard for worthy is NOT the end in itself. It is rather the approach, the knock on the door, the seeking of the kingdom, the waiting upon the Lord, the coming unto Christ with full purpose of heart, repentance done right. Without a direct response from God it is vain and purposeless and counts for nothing.

This sort is NOT recognized in any group (other than a real Zion) as valid and its value cannot be exchanged for the least bit of good will among others and will in fact result in an off-putting reaction from the world that thinks it foolish and special thinking even mental illness and the height of arrogance to PRETEND to a living and real knowing relationship with God.

The second counts for faith in God both expecting and waiting for a response and the first is self-evident a complete lack of faith in God expecting no response. The world will only embrace the closed set of NO FAITH as the only sane and healthy way for a fulfilling life.

Those willing to subject their faith to the judgment of God threaten the righteousness of the world. If that judgment is validated all hypocrisy is condemned. Such is pushed off and threatened with every sort of social if no corporeal punishment.

The world will assess that they love God (wonder of nature's miracle) and treasure the joy of life as a validation of righteousness and reward for all that they do. As a majority they feel no need to wonder about those poor unfortunates who sought a direct relationship only to reap a whirlwind of a thoroughly messed up life. Those unfortunates are so rare as to go completely unnoticed by the vast majority. No cause for concern. The world remains blind.

Worthy set 1 is content that they know God as well as any reasonable and rational person possibly can. Why should they ever suspect that they are wrong or hypocrite? Like those who do not believe in God the nagging barbs of conscience and scripture precedent are overwhelmed by a good life.

Worthy set 2 knows God, have the gifts and powers of the Holy Ghost, are taught of God from day to day, go from a grace to grace, abound in exceeding great joy that wells up at times to overflow and nourish them body and soul. This sort know that they live in a separate reality from the world.
This sort desire constantly to introduce all others to this living with God. This sort are hated, cast out and killed by the world defending its owned wholesomeness that uphold honorable family, friends and good neighbors.
Not to mention valued business credibility.

Looks like the choice is clear between these two opposites.

Worthy set 1 chooses peace and harmony with the world and in hypocrisy might call that harmony religion, God, the spirit, and righteousness or without hypocrisy just good guyism.
Worthy set 2 chooses peace and harmony with God and suffers for it.

Rom. 8: 17
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Tim. 3: 12
12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

[_Nightlion]

Getting much too wordy too much about worthy

1. accepted of the world is its own reward in ten thousand varieties.

2. accepted of God is its own reward (Only one type as no other gods have demonstrated power and ability to recreate, sanctify, and add unto you substantively and no documented history of consistently doing the same for men of all ages and scattered throughout the earth)

These two are mutually exclusive. You cannot own both. Both demand that you relinquish the other to be accepted.

[_honorentheos]

Nightlion,

Again, thank you for the lengthy post.

To be honest, that doesn't make sense.

You give us two options to consider. The first is, "inoperable spiritually (every false way)" which you tell us is a consensus view. "No direct response from God is required"

The second is "operable spirituality where God is directly involved".

Regarding the former, you tell us that the definition of worthiness is derived by some non-God "other" if I can reduce your point to a manageable size.

But regarding the second, you also say - "...an exact worthy set is required and is precisely standardized across the board of spiritual documentation. This standard for worthy is NOT the end in itself. It is rather the approach, the knock on the door, the seeking of the kingdom, the waiting upon the Lord, the coming unto Christ with full purpose of heart, repentance done right. Without a direct response from God it is vain and purposeless and counts for nothing."

My understanding is this - you differentiate between the two by saying the former lacks God while the later includes God. Both have worthiness requirements. You suggest that if God is directly involved this means the requirements aren't an end but really a means. You seem to imply that the reason this doesn't work for the former is that God, as you define him, isn't at the ends of the worthiness requirements of whatever form of inoperable spirituality a person happens to live by.

Which means, (take a breath) - we're all back to wondering how a person can prove or disprove God. Because if you can't prove you have God on YOUR side, you are just setting up another worthiness test. It's only if a person happens to have a true relationship with God as the ends of their process are they not following a worthiness test but are instead fostering a relationship. It's just a matter of perspective. It doesn't seem like any decernable difference is present. If I tell you my way IS resulting in a true relationship with God while yours is just something you do to make yourself feel like you are close to God, how would we end the stalemate?

In some ways, this "god" at the end of your particular worthiness test just sounds like an imaginary friend invented to make up for the lack of quality real-world relationships in a person's life.

How am I wrong in this assessment?