Sarah Pratt: Credible Witness?

[_truth dancer]

Would God of the universe, pick a man like Joseph Smith to restore the one true church in preparation for the return of Jesus Christ? (Of course God can do whatever God wants, nevertheless, rational thought would suggest God would not chose a man whose behavior was questionable at best).

This is where I think it becomes necessary to consider what the scriptures say.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him aglory in the Lord.

There are many references in the scriptures which state that God chooses the weak of this world to perform his work. The proud and the mighty have a difficult if not impossible time accepting this.

TD: I do not equate weak with dishonest, manipulative, and sexually out of control.

in my opinion, Joseph Smith WAS proud and certainly THOUGHT he was mighty... King of Israel on Earth and all.

Is a man who engaged in some of the despicable things Joseph Smith did, in tune with holiness enough to feel the prompting of the HG or worthy enough to be visited with Jesus and angles? (I suppose God could work through anyone, nevertheless, it seems more likely that one who was in touch with holiness would be better able (worthy) to receive the messages from the divine.

The scripture quoted above seems to say yes.

TD: I completely disagree. Of course I do not believe scriptures are God breathed, but are of powerful men, nevertheless, Christ, in my opinion, discusses what it means to be a disciple, based on scripture, in my opinion Joseph Smith doesn't qualify.

Why would the God of the Universe, allow Joseph Smith to get a practice/doctrine so completely wrong, a practice that is REQUIRED for exaltation? (For a man who is receiving messages on the details of his friends lives, channeling the voice of Jesus, being visited by angels, even God himself, it seems odd that he would be so mistaken, and God would not step in).

We've been down this path before. God allows people to be people. Look around. Teach correct principles and let them...even prophets...govern themselves.

TD: Yeah.. then why bother with God at all. Why have prophets if they are just regular not so great guys who can't seem to receive revelation and come up with their own ungodly ways? Why not God just come out and say prophets do not know what they are talking about? Why come up with the idea of restoration if God is not willing to help it along and actually restore something? I seriously do not understand this line of thinking MG. :-)

If Joseph Smith's sexual manipulative behavior is common among other powerful cult and religious leaders, why does Joseph Smith get a free pass? (I find this so odd... that in the LDS church, the same men who would condemn others who engage in the same exact behavior as Joseph Smith, respect and excuse Joseph Smith. I seriously find this fascinating... the way the brain works to justify and rationalize away what it doesn't want to accept).

For any misdeads/sins that Joseph Smith committed my guess is that he will not recieve a free pass. The atonement/repentance processes are just as applicable to him as any of us. God looks on the heart. God judges. We can't...we can't see the whole picture as I mentioned before.

TD: No, but we have been given a mind and heart, experience and a conscience to give us some basic guidelines in determining what behavior is hurtful, cruel, and unethical.

It is silliness, in my opinion to give a free pass to all the criminals, bad guys, evil doers in the world because they are just really good guys. We live in a world where one's actions, intentions, and behaviors do indeed become important in our interactions.

If men had a neighbor guy do to his wife and daughters what Joseph Smith did to girls and women, they would be outraged. Why is Joseph Smith's behavior fine and dandy? Why is it OK for Joseph Smith to manipulate and coerce girls and teenagers unless it is one's daughter?
(Again, I think it goes to the fascinating ability of our brains to not face reality if it is too difficult to accept).

Whatever wrongs Joseph Smith did are not fine and dandy.

TD: Maybe, overlooked, or dismissed, or ignored would be a better word.

Joseph Smith's behavior (sexually and otherwise), in my opinion, like other cult and religious leaders who use their power to control, coerce, manipulate, or take advantage of women, disqualifies him as a "good man". Again, he may have had some good qualities, but a good man? Nope.

Your judgement is made from your isolated perspective. God may look at things a bit differently. We are locked into the here and now and are prone to make judgments based on what we see/experience in the here and now. I really don't think we can get any kind of a firm grasp on how God may look at things from an eternal perspective.

TD: Absolutely God would look at things differently. Yes, we are locked into our earthly reality. How does this change anything?

I guess I do not understand why you do not see Joseph Smith's behavior towards girls and women irrelevant?

If you had a neighbor who was KNOWN to be untrustworthy, KNOWN to pick up girls and women, KNOWN to have cheated people, KNOWN to have lied to his wife about his secret relationships with girls and women, would you not question his claims to receive revelation?

It is difficult for me to understand why believers dismiss Joseph Smith's behavior when they would NEVER dismiss it in anyone else. NEVER.

Have you ever seen the show, Predator, on MSNBC? It sets up male sexual predators who allure fourteen and fifteen year old girls and boys into a sexual relationship.

I doubt there is one believers who would honor these sexual predators, who would dismiss their actions with the excuse that God sees a bigger picture, who would justify their actions because these guys are really great men but just made a little mistake.

Tell me if I am wrong. If not, why do believers dismiss Joseph Smith?

We sure do like to tell him to do/think things through our way don't we?!

TD: No, I was clear that God can do anything God wants. (If there is such a man/being which I highly doubt). :-)

I guess we all have different standards.

And God/Christ is apparently willing to be very merciful and forgiving as long as we look to him in faith. The evidence seems to point towards Joseph Smith having done so.

TD: Nope, it is not at all apparent to anyone outside of your true believers. ;-)

Similarly to all other followers who believe God works through their particular cult/religious leader.

Regards,
MG

The bottom line for me is: Why do believers not judge Joseph Smith in the same way they judge all other men who behavior in a similar manner?

~dancer~

[_truth dancer]

I love how pointing out how women have been exploited and abused by men-- a staple of feminist historiography-- is for juliann actually sexist because it implies these women failed to stand up for themselves. Seems pretty backwards to me.

I completely agree with you.

As if by acknowledging there are women in a shelter somehow implies these women are stupid.

Strange.

I hold to the opinion that women do their best to manage their life and take care of their children. Those women who do what they can to tolerate, cope with, or manage a horrific situation are doing their best as are those who find a way to get out of the situation.


~dancer~

[_Brackite]

Are you channeling Juliann, Will? This is perhaps the dumbest defense of polygamy I've ever heard: the women didn't complain, and our disapproval of the practice means we're anti-feminists who want to silence these women who deserve to heard, dammit! Hell, the Jonestown folks didn't complain while they were lining up to drink the Kool-Aid, did they? What a stupid, stupid argument, Will.

Hello Runtu,

Juliann is at it again, for this defense of Polygamy. Here is a very Recent Post of hers, on the MA&D Message Board:

From juliann:


You appear to be the one who can't move on.

First, your website is intellectually dishonest. They are careful not to footnote so that anyone can read an entire selection.

Second, you are quoting "averages". That means some married earlier and some married later.

You claim, " Sure there exceptions, as there are today but that didn't mean it was acceptable." CFR that it was "unacceptable" to marry at early ages in the 19th century merely because of a statistically created average age.

Third, stop treating Mormon women as stupid dupes who were traded like corn. It is offensive and untrue.


( http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 3192&st=40 , Bold Emphasis Mine. )

Who is she addressing, Brackie? And who does she think she's kidding? Many of them were dupes who were traded like corn. Brigham treated his dogs better than he treated some of his wives. And her outrage at someone who gets outraged that their family member was one of those dupes who were traded like corn is outrageous! My husband's family has several polygamous marriages... all of them were dupes, talked into doing something outrageous by a man masquerading as God's mouthpiece who was following the path laid out by another man masquerading as God's mouthpiece, long after his one gift had been fulfilled.

Hi Harmony,

Juliann was addressing a Poster named 'Cooper' over there. Here are the two Posts from 'Cooperr',' that Juliann did Not like over there:

From Cooper:

Please post your data on this. I've looked at the census data and it tells a completely DIFFERENT tale. Girls married at an average age of 20-21. They started puberty later (about 3 years later than today). Hard to argue with the census. I've seen too many people make quotes like this with no data to back it up.

Also, please don't quote data from polygamy as they DO marry younger and should not be included.

...


http://www.wivesofjosephsmith.org/Age.htm

Above URL quoted below -


In 1843 Apostle Heber C. Kimball had an important talk with his only daughter, fourteen-year-old Helen Mar. She wrote: “Without any preliminaries [my Father] asked me if I would believe him if he told me that it was right for married men to take other wives...The first impulse was anger...my sensibilities were painfully touched. I felt such a sense of personal injury and displeasure; for to mention such a thing to me I thought altogether unworthy of my father, and as quick as he spoke, I replied to him, short and emphatically, ‘No I wouldn’t!’...This was the first time that I ever openly manifested anger towards him...Then he commenced talking seriously and reasoned and explained the principle, and why it was again to be established upon the earth. [This] had a similar effect to a sudden shock of a small earthquake.”

Then father “asked me if I would be sealed to Joseph...[and] left me to reflect upon it for the next twenty-four hours...I was sceptical-one minute believed, then doubted. I thought of the love and tenderness that he felt for his only daughter, and I knew that he would not cast her off, and this was the only convincing proof that I had of its being right. I knew that he loved me too well to teach me anything that was not strictly pure, virtuous and exalting in its tendencies; and no one else could have influenced me at that time or brought me to accept of a doctrine so utterly repugnant and so contrary to all of our former ideas and traditions.” Unknown to Helen Mar, Heber and Joseph had already discussed the prospect of Helen Mar becoming one of Joseph’s wives. Heber now sought her agreement. Helen recalls, “Having a great desire to be connected with the Prophet Joseph, he offered me to him; this I afterwards learned from the Prophet’s own mouth. My father had but one Ewe Lamb, but willingly laid her upon the alter”

The next morning Joseph visited the Kimball home. "[He explained] the principle of Celestial marrage...After which he said to me, ‘If you will take this step, it will ensure your eternal salvation & exaltation and that of your father’s household & all of your kindred.[‘] This promise was so great that I willingly gave myself to purchase so glorious a reward. None but God & his angels could see my mother’s bleeding heart-when Joseph asked her if she was willing...She had witnessed the sufferings of others, who were older & who better understood the step they were taking, & to see her child, who had scarcely seen her fifteenth summer, following in the same thorny path, in her mind she saw the misery which was as sure to come...; but it was all hidden from me.” Helen’s mother reluctantly agreed and in May of 1843, Helen married Joseph Smith.

During the winter of 1843-44, there were weekly parties at Joseph Smith’s Mansion House. Many of Helen’s friends attended, as well as her sixteen-year-old brother William. Disappointed, Helen wrote, “my father had been warned by the Prophet to keep his daughter away...I felt quite sore over it, and thought it a very unkind act in father to allow [William] to go and enjoy the dance unrestrained with others of my companions, and fettered me down, for no girl loved dancing better than I did...and like a wild bird I longed for the freedom that was denied me; and thought myself an abused child, and that it was pardonable if I did murmur.”

In June 1844, Heber was away from home on a mission and wrote to Helen: “MY DEAR DAUGHTER-...be obedient to the counsel you have given to you...If you should be tempted, or having feelings in your heart, tell them to no one but your father and mother; if you do, you will be betrayed and exposed...You are blessed, but you know it not. You have done that which will be for your everlasting good for this world and that which is to come. I will admit there is not much pleasure in this world...Be true to the covenants that you have made...Be a good girl;...your affectionate father.” A few weeks later Joseph Smith was killed in Carthage. After one year of marriage, Helen was a widow.

Helen’s father would eventually marry thirty-nine wives. She wrote, “I had, in hours of temptation when seeing the trials of my mother, felt to rebel. I hated polygamy in my heart.” Helen later fell victim to a prolonged illness: “For three months I lay a portion of the time like one dead...I tasted of the punishment which is prepared for those who reject any of the principles of this Gospel.” Eventually she was converted to polygamy and recovered from her illness, “I fasted for one week, and every day I gained until I had won the victory...I learned that plural marriage is a celestial principle, and saw... the necessity of obedience to those who hold the priesthood, and the danger of rebelling against or speaking lightly of the Lord’s annointed”. Helen later summarized her experience with plural marriage in a poem:


I thought through this life my time will be my own
The step I now am taking’s for eternity alone,
No one need be the wiser, through time I shall be free,
And as the past hath been the future still will be.
To my guileless heart all free from worldly care
And full of blissful hopes and youthful visions rare
The world seamed bright the thret’ning clouds were kept
From sight and all looked fair...

...but pitying angels wept.
They saw my youthful friends grow shy and cold.
And poisonous darts from sland’rous tongues were hurled,
Untutor’d heart in thy gen’rous sacrafise,
Thou dids’t not weigh the cost nor know the bitter price;
Thy happy dreams all o’er thou’st doom’d also to be
Bar’d out from social scenes by this thy destiny,
And o’er thy sad’nd mem’ries of sweet departed joys
Thy sicken’d heart will brood and imagine future woes,
And like a fetter’d bird with wild and longing heart,
Thou’lt dayly pine for freedom and murmor at thy lot;

But could’st thou see the future & view that glorious crown,
Awaiting you in Heaven you would not weep nor mourn.
Pure and exalted was thy father’s aim, he saw
A glory in obeying this high celestial law,
For to thousands who’ve died without the light
I will bring eternal joy & make thy crown more bright.
I’d been taught to reveire the Prophet of God
And receive every word as the word of the Lord,
But had this not come through my dear father’s mouth,
I should ne’r have received it as God’s sacred truth.

Helen Mar Kimball

( http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 33192&st=0 )

From Cooper:

Again I'm going to ask for data on this one. One example doesn't make it a trend. I don't have it handy but again the census data I've seen says that people tended to marry people their own age. Sure there exceptions, as there are today but that didn't mean it was acceptable.

In the 1840's ANYONE marrying a 14 year old would be viewed poorly. Especially a 36 year old. Marrying at 14 was extremely uncommon. Just as it is today.

You know - I have to throw my own feelings in here - Whatever excuses anyone else comes up with, it's wrong to do what Joseph did to the Kimballs. It was wrong for the Kimballs to offer up their daughter. It was wrong for Joseph to accept it. It was WRONG in my opinion.

People on this board are fond of saying that Joseph and the prophets were men, and as such can make mistakes. Why can't anyone just say - it was wrong. It was a mistake. It shouldn't have happened and move own.

( http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... 3192&st=20 , Bold Emphasis Mine. )

[_Inconceivable]

What amazes me is that some folks justify Joseph Smith's sexual behavior...

..Whatever happened, happened. We know he was not a perfect man. The question is, was he a good man? Was he good enough to permit God to work through him as a prophet of the restoration?

MG, Will et al,

The not a perfect man card always seems to be tossed in right about here.

However, I have yet to read a personal confession from a very public man of what he may have committed that made him imperfect.

Neither has an apologist stepped forward and admitted that his sexual improprieties are what they are implying in threads such as this one.

1) In reference to poligamy, what specifically made Joseph Smith IMPERFECT?

2) Or are you making an assumption that is wholy non-doctrinal/undocumented/heretical?

Put up or shut up.

However, be wary of what you say about him, it may condemn him by his own words:

37 That they may be conferred upon us, it is true; but when we undertake to cover our sins,
or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls
of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the
Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.

(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 121:37)

[_floatingboy]

You say I have a vested interest. What is it? I really want to know. Because, from my point of view, there are a host of sacrifices that must be made for me to remain faithful to the precepts of the gospel Joseph Smith taught. I would much rather tip back a Pilsner Urquel, or maybe smoke a joint or two on the weekends, or go on the road and rock the socks off adoring fans in smoky clubs, or get back the quarter of a million dollars I have paid in tithing and take my wife on a round-the-world second honeymoon for an entire year, or not have to waste hour upon hour in poorly-managed ecclesiastical meetings, or be able to tell a relief society counselor that she’s being a petty bitch for looking down her nose at another woman in the ward who isn’t quite as “orthodox” as she “ought” to be. I would no longer be mocked and ridiculed when I go among unbelieving friends or associates. I would no longer have to be associated with a religious belief system that is widely disparaged as the acme of stupidity and its adherents the most egregious examples of gullibility in our world today.

You just outlined it really in reverse. You have devoted your life, lifestyle, culture, money, family, time and so on to a religion founded by Joseph Smith. You have a vested interest in maintaining that belief because if it is gone look at all you have given up for it. Man would you feel stupid, robbed, dupped, like life may have been wasted and so on. You have been mocked so if you decide now Joseph Smith is not a prophet than the mocking and disparagement had some merits. I think this is really pretty clear.

this is what i was going to say, too. that is the real investment; you gave it all up so it better well be worth it.

incidentally...pilsner urquell! i heartily agree.

[_Buffalo]

Joseph must have been endowed with other gifts.

Yes, he certainly must have been. And one of them must have been the ability to please his plural wives, since we are unaware of any of them ever even expressing displeasure with him, let alone denouncing him in any way. Now that's quite a man, if you ask me. According to Sethbag, Joseph bedded dozens of women in his day -- and not a one of them felt spurned afterwards? Amazing! Indeed, some of them almost spoke reverentially of him. I especially like Eliza Snow's response (no doubt with a glint of fond recollection in her eye) to someone who suggested that Joseph Smith would never have consummated his plural marriages, "I thought you knew Joseph Smith better than that . . . "

So while you offended moderns are fanning the embers of outrage towards Joseph Smith and his allegedly wild escapades in Nauvoo, I find it quite telling that those in the best position to judge him harshly, the women you assure us were harmed, pointedly fail to do so. Indeed, they continue to regard him as a "Prophet of God" to their dying day.

But why give them any voice in the matter, right? No doubt they were all just a bunch of giddy "whores from their mother's breast," anxious to be counted among this depraved Lothario's uncounted conquests.

There are many FLDS victims of Warren Jeffs' sexual predation who also warmly regard Jeffs as the Lord's prophet. But why is Will so shy about speaking up about Joseph's sexual prowess over at MAD? While all the apologists are busy trying to paint Joseph as a celibate forger of legacy sealings, it's complete silence from Schryver.

[_Sethbag]

Wow, quite the necropost.

[_why me]

Angel/sword/death. What part of that story don't you understand, Will? The part about Joseph using God as the hammer to getting women to marry him?

And yet we have this:

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Exodus-5-3/

And they said, The God of the Hebrews hath met with us: let us go, we pray thee, three days' journey into the desert, and sacrifice unto the LORD our God; lest he fall upon us with pestilence, or with the sword.

The sword fits right into the picture of just who god is. How to explain it?

[_why me]

I think that as the whole of the picture is observed from a distance that there is reason to believe so. To focus on one part of an aged canvas at a time without moving back and observing the whole view/perspective is myopic.

Regards,
MG

Especially when one reads his letters to emma. Even from prison he was demonstrating his concern and love. Not exactly a letter that one would write to someone that must have been in on the fraud, if it were a fraud. Joseph Smith was not perfect. He often admited so and certainly the saints were constantly judging his imperfections and many left the church because of them. But Joseph Smith soldiered on and died for his faith.

[_Buffalo]

I think that as the whole of the picture is observed from a distance that there is reason to believe so. To focus on one part of an aged canvas at a time without moving back and observing the whole view/perspective is myopic.

Regards,
MG

Especially when one reads his letters to emma. Even from prison he was demonstrating his concern and love. Not exactly a letter that one would write to someone that must have been in on the fraud, if it were a fraud. Joseph Smith was not perfect. He often admited so and certainly the saints were constantly judging his imperfections and many left the church because of them. But Joseph Smith soldiered on and died for illegally destroying a private press.

I'm sure you could find some tender moments in the life of Warren Jeffs as well.

I edited your last sentence for you, to improve accuracy.