Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

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_Buffalo
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Buffalo »

moksha wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Anyone?


Buffalo, the answer to all three questions in found in Joseph Campbell's Transformations of Myth through Time. Through the outward expanse of Mankind, change occurs over time in the retelling of sacred stories and changes in language. However, many of the original ideas remain and can be traced to a past known or unknown source.


Which means what regarding the gods Yahweh and El?
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Morley
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Morley »

bcspace wrote:
So, you put the Garden of Eden at about 8,000 BCE?


Sure. Why not?

And the Flood at about 6,000 BCE?


Perhaps a flooding of the Black Sea in 5600 B.C. The Thera volcano eruption and subsequent tsunami in 1600 BC seems to soon. A meteor or comet strike in the Indian ocean around 2800 to 3000 BC (Burckle Crater) and result tsunami seems plausible, etc. I like to trend closer to the mid 2000's B.C. as I think as you get closer to Abraham, the dates are more reasonably accurate. Abraham, if the relative Bible ages are correct (around Abrahma's time) and there are no missing generations, was born while Noah was still alive.


You believe we're all descended from Noah (circa 2500 BCE)?
_Drifting
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Drifting »

bcspace wrote:
So, you put the Garden of Eden at about 8,000 BCE?


Sure. Why not?

And the Flood at about 6,000 BCE?


Perhaps a flooding of the Black Sea in 5600 B.C. The Thera volcano eruption and subsequent tsunami in 1600 BC seems to soon. A meteor or comet strike in the Indian ocean around 2800 to 3000 BC (Burckle Crater) and result tsunami seems plausible, etc. I like to trend closer to the mid 2000's B.C. as I think as you get closer to Abraham, the dates are more reasonably accurate. Abraham, if the relative Bible ages are correct (around Abrahma's time) and there are no missing generations, was born while Noah was still alive.


Bcspace when did you apostatise?
LDS scriptural chronology states Adam and Eve at 4,000bc and the Global flood (has to be global for LDS) sometime between 3,000 and 2,000bc.
No wriggle room, that's published in the standard works of the Church.

There is a third group of people—those who accept the literal message of the Bible regarding Noah, the ark, and the Deluge. Latter-day Saints belong to this group. In spite of the world’s arguments against the historicity of the Flood, and despite the supposed lack of geologic evidence, we Latter-day Saints believe that Noah was an actual man, a prophet of God, who preached repentance and raised a voice of warning, built an ark, gathered his family and a host of animals onto the ark, and floated safely away as waters covered the entire earth. We are assured that these events actually occurred by the multiple testimonies of God’s prophets. Ensign January 1998.
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_Rambo
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Rambo »

bcspace wrote:
Perhaps a flooding of the Black Sea in 5600 B.C. The Thera volcano eruption and subsequent tsunami in 1600 BC seems to soon. A meteor or comet strike in the Indian ocean around 2800 to 3000 BC (Burckle Crater) and result tsunami seems plausible, etc. I like to trend closer to the mid 2000's B.C. as I think as you get closer to Abraham, the dates are more reasonably accurate. Abraham, if the relative Bible ages are correct (around Abrahma's time) and there are no missing generations, was born while Noah was still alive.


BC, if you believe in the local flood theory then how did Noah get from Missouri to the middle east? Isn't it Mormon doctrine that the garden of eden was in Missouri?
_bcspace
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _bcspace »

Perhaps a flooding of the Black Sea in 5600 B.C. The Thera volcano eruption and subsequent tsunami in 1600 BC seems to soon. A meteor or comet strike in the Indian ocean around 2800 to 3000 BC (Burckle Crater) and result tsunami seems plausible, etc. I like to trend closer to the mid 2000's B.C. as I think as you get closer to Abraham, the dates are more reasonably accurate. Abraham, if the relative Bible ages are correct (around Abrahma's time) and there are no missing generations, was born while Noah was still alive.

You believe we're all descended from Noah (circa 2500 BCE)?


No. I accept a local Flood, remember?

BC, if you believe in the local flood theory then how did Noah get from Missouri to the middle east?


What makes Noah have to start in in Missouri?

Isn't it Mormon doctrine that the garden of eden was in Missouri?


The scriptures referenced for that state that Adam gathered his children in Missouri, not that Eden was there. But I don't think a Missouri Eden precludes an opposite hemisphere local flood.
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_Drifting
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Drifting »

bcspace wrote:

No. I accept a local Flood, remember?



Yes, you are in opposition to Church teaching on this - you are on your way to the dark side.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
_Morley
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Morley »

bcspace wrote:....
The scriptures referenced for that state that Adam gathered his children in Missouri, not that Eden was there. But I don't think a Missouri Eden precludes an opposite hemisphere local flood.


BC, please outline your Eden/Flood beliefs, geography, and timeline. I, for one, am very interested in them.
_bcspace
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _bcspace »

BC, please outline your Eden/Flood beliefs, geography, and timeline. I, for one, am very interested in them.


No timeline per se, but it all revolves around my acceptance of evolution and all science; recognizing that science does not necessarily equate to THE absolute truth but is a good method for trying to get there. So....

Big Bang/Evolution up to modern homo sapiens.

Recognizing that there are hundreds of thousands of years of big-brained homo sapiens who nevertheless don't come up with civilization until recently, I hypothesize that the preAdamite homo sapiens either were infused with a different spirit (not a spirit child of God) or there was a great revelation of knowledge (Eden and just after) that sparked humanity's uplift.

Assuming evolution, it proceeds until God determines all is ready and then (hypothestically) two homo sapiens are born who have spirit children of God as spirits within them and are placed into the garden. The question then arises as to is it just the garden in which there is no death or is it the whole world? There is doctrinal support for either and I can go either way. Then there was the Fall. The time in the garden could last many many years imho without being detected by say, a slow down in evolution.

As for a date, I'm flexible. But I think it makes more sense to push it back from the traditional 4000 BC to near 8000 BC and the rise of the first civilization.

So after the Fall, evolution, at least for homo sapiens depending on the extent of "no death", proceeds apace. No need to worry about Noah since the Flood is local. Continental drift is as science has it. In the Hebrew, the waters covering the land can just as easily be interpreted local and the separation in the days of Peleg need not be continental or refer to land at all.

The question might be asked what happened to those homo sapiens outside the garden (if there was an outside)? Well, perhaps they kept on going and because they had lesser spirits holding back their deveolpment, they couldn't compete and died out. Perhaps there was intermating and the resulting bodies all had spirit children of God despite the fact that one parent didn't. Or perhaps after the Fall, all homo sapiens thereafter gave birth to bodies with spirit children of God. In that last case, we would obviously not descend physically from Adam but in a spirit sense we are still consider part of the same family.

I'm sure there are other equally plausible explainations that could help my hypothesis and sure my hypothesis is not the only one that allows for evolution etc.

Evolution itself is supported in LDS scripture. In 2 Nephi 2:22 we see that everything was created AND THEN placed into a state of no death. So we have a period of creation in which the property of no death is not given. Thye Abraham account of the creation is evolution friendly. Some doctrine, such as that on D&C 77 in the institute manual makes the spiritual creation actually a physical one and negates the notion of seven dispensations being the whole history of the world. it's only the history we need be concerned about.

The 1909 statement does not preclude evolution.
The 1931 statement allows for preAdamite notions to exist without being contrary to LDS doctrine.

etc. etc.

So I am in conflict with LDS doctrine on the Flood and Peleg, but not on evolution.

Yes, you are in opposition to Church teaching on this - you are on your way to the dark side.


Doubt it. I've been advocating evolution since I was 15 and a Teacher in the Aaronic Priesthood and was brought before the bishop because of it. The SP, thanks to my Dad, got me off the hook. I am now having my first grandchildren. Nothing's changed in between regarding the status of my belief in the LDS Church as the only true Church. Doubts certainly have rose and fell, but nothing to cause an antiMormon radar to show a blip.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
_Morley
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Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _Morley »

I don't have time to respond right now. But thank you.
_mentalgymnast

Re: Believers: why was your God so late on the scene?

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Whatever has happened before doesn't matter today...unless you can prove to me right here, right now, that God doesn't exist and that there isn't any ultimate rhyme or reason for life on earth today, no matter how it may have evolved over time.

Should we discard belief in God and a hereafter because we may run into difficulties as we try to put some old pieces of a puzzle together and make a complete/whole picture?

Regards,
MG
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