Joseph Smith turning back to Certain Death

[_Cardinal Biggles]

I have a hunch that John Taylor took great literary license when later composing what he imagined Joseph and Hyrum might have said to each other prior to their return to Nauvoo. I have a hunch that Taylor also took great literary license concerning some of the events that occurred at Carthage. I don't think that anyone read from the Book of Mormon for comfort. D&C 135 might be poetic and stirring, but I question its accuracy.

And I'm virtually positive that the story about Taylor's pocket watch saving him is pure BS.

Look, Joseph Smith fully expected that the Nauvoo Legion was on its way to save him. Turns out he was wrong. It wouldn't surprise me if a large portion of that mob was made up of Smith's disaffected followers... people angry about their wives being propositioned... people angry about their money being lost in the anti-banking fiasco. Smith probably recognized some of his former followers in that mob, and that's probably why he tried to save his skin by appealing to the Masonic distress call.

[_Wisdom Seeker]

Look, Joseph Smith fully expected that the Nauvoo Legion was on its way to save him. Turns out he was wrong. It wouldn't surprise me if a large portion of that mob was made up of Smith's disaffected followers... people angry about their wives being propositioned... people angry about their money being lost in the anti-banking fiasco. Smith probably recognized some of his former followers in that mob, and that's probably why he tried to save his skin by appealing to the Masonic distress call.

While the gentiles had a good reason to be angry with Joseph, does it not seem to make sense that disaffected saints covered their faces and identity had more of valid reason to start this ruckus in the first place?

[_Morley]

Oh that's applicable. And just how was David Koresh getting out of Waco surrounded by federal agents already? Joseph could have easily marched his 100,000+ adherents into the Rocky Mountains of Mexico and declared themselves a new nation at the defiance of all. They would have succeeded too. May have taken the whole of California to boot. The evidence shows that he was despondent unto death. Speaking openly and publicly of death and dying on more than one occasion.

Emphasis mine.

Actually, about 30,000 adherents.

[_sunstoned]

I lent out my copy of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith but this was spoken to the Relief Society in the last year or two of Joseph's life.
Finding a quote online from this book is a real bother its also in the Documentary History of the Church.

He said that the Church must be cleansed, that he would have a reformation and that he was surrounded by all sorts of characters........meaning, I believe that he realized how many tares had already infested the church.

Tomorrow I can get with who has my book and get the citations.

Mr. Nightlion, is it your proposition that the Church fell into apostasy with the death of Joseph Smith? If so, that does not seem to bode well for God's planning and management skills. This apparently being just the latest failure to establish the kingdom that would supposedly roll forward to consume the world.

[_Nightlion]

I have a hunch that John Taylor took great literary license when later composing what he imagined Joseph and Hyrum might have said to each other prior to their return to Nauvoo. I have a hunch that Taylor also took great literary license concerning some of the events that occurred at Carthage. I don't think that anyone read from the Book of Mormon for comfort. D&C 135 might be poetic and stirring, but I question its accuracy.

And I'm virtually positive that the story about Taylor's pocket watch saving him is pure b***s***.

Look, Joseph Smith fully expected that the Nauvoo Legion was on its way to save him. Turns out he was wrong. It wouldn't surprise me if a large portion of that mob was made up of Smith's disaffected followers... people angry about their wives being propositioned... people angry about their money being lost in the anti-banking fiasco. Smith probably recognized some of his former followers in that mob, and that's probably why he tried to save his skin by appealing to the Masonic distress call.

Let's get this organized, shall we? Everything positive is pure B...S... whereas everything negative is probable. Right! Come back in one year, your grace, perhaps then you will sip the soup of objectivity.

[_Nightlion]

I lent out my copy of Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith but this was spoken to the Relief Society in the last year or two of Joseph's life.
Finding a quote online from this book is a real bother its also in the Documentary History of the Church.

He said that the Church must be cleansed, that he would have a reformation and that he was surrounded by all sorts of characters........meaning, I believe that he realized how many tares had already infested the church.

Tomorrow I can get with who has my book and get the citations.

Mr. Nightlion, is it your proposition that the Church fell into apostasy with the death of Joseph Smith? If so, that does not seem to bode well for God's planning and management skills. This apparently being just the latest failure to establish the kingdom that would supposedly roll forward to consume the world.

No, the church was always fallen and never got up to begin with. Joseph failed to raise up Zion. Only Zion is the true church. Amen.
Like Christ failed in Jerusalem but not in America, Moses failed, Noah failed, Book of Mormon mostly failed, Isaiah failed, Jeremiah failed, David failed, only Enoch and possibly Melchizedek succeeded to sanctify the people.

Beside you are thinking like a Gentile. God planted the Restoration and will bring forth the fruit in the season thereof. A stone cut out of the mountain without hands, a little one becomes a great nation, according to the foreknowledge of God. Wait. Gentiles wait for nothing but with great impatience and wrath they deny God in the hastiness of their soul. Pity.
You were only being tested. Pity.

The Great Apostate Revolution was at the doors. God knew that. So he HAD to get the gospel refreshed upon the earth before the GREAT DENIAL of God set in. So it has been nourished and kept hide with Christ in God in the wilderness of obscurity until it breaks open suddenly.

[_Nightlion]

Oh that's applicable. And just how was David Koresh getting out of Waco surrounded by federal agents already? Joseph could have easily marched his 100,000+ adherents into the Rocky Mountains of Mexico and declared themselves a new nation at the defiance of all. They would have succeeded too. May have taken the whole of California to boot. The evidence shows that he was despondent unto death. Speaking openly and publicly of death and dying on more than one occasion.

Emphasis mine.

Actually, about 30,000 adherents.

Where did I hear that is was well over 100,000 at least in great sympathy if not official members? If he had done exploits who knows how many would have run after him? If that was his intent he would have left before the Nauvoo Expositor happened. As soon as he was certain that betrayers had commenced their treason. What happened to him being crowned king and taking the leadership of the whole earth? What disheartened him? Treason. Long before the Law brothers printing press was considered.

[_Morley]

Where did I hear that is was well over 100,000 at least in great sympathy if not official members? If he had done exploits who knows how many would have run after him? If that was his intent he would have left before the Nauvoo Expositor happened. As soon as he was certain that betrayers had commenced their treason. What happened to him being crowned king and taking the leadership of the whole earth? What disheartened him? Treason. Long before the Law brothers printing press was considered.

You see him as something of a fallen prophet?

[_Wisdom Seeker]

And yet BY was guided to the Apocalrock or just coincidence?

[_Dr. Shades]

Thank you for the reply and I am glad you made this point because you would think Fawn Brodie would suggest in No Man Knows My History that "Joseph DIDN'T think he was going back for certain death." To my surprise she makes it CRYSTAL clear that he did think and was CONVINCED that he would be put to death. . . So, the question is where is it cited that Joseph Smith thought he was going back to face a trial? Is that just speculation? If anyone would have cited such a notion I am sure it would have been Brodie.

This surprises me, because I can swear that Brodie is the one from whom I learned the above in the first place

I was convinced that Brodie herself wrote about Joseph consulting with his lawyers and drawing up his defense for the inevitable trial.

The fact that you're claiming Brodie DIDN'T say such a thing sort of throws me for a loop. Perhaps I read about it in Quinn?