Joseph Smith and Fanny...

[_Darth J]

Why Me:

Marriage is a legal relationship.

Please indicate in which jurisdiction in the United States a purported marriage between Joseph Smith and anyone else, when he was already married to Emma, would have been legally recognized.

Which is one reason why fanny could marry solomon custer without any hitches. But she was sealed to Joseph Smith to my understanding.

Let's try this again. Was Fanny Alger married to Joseph Smith?

This is a yes or no question.

[_sock puppet]

Why Me:

Marriage is a legal relationship.

Please indicate in which jurisdiction in the United States a purported marriage between Joseph Smith and anyone else, when he was already married to Emma, would have been legally recognized.

Which is one reason why fanny could marry solomon custer without any hitches. But she was sealed to Joseph Smith to my understanding.

And it all happened even before the "sealing" power was, per JSJr's own claims, restored to the earth. Sort of a retroactive sealing to anyone JSJr had boinked beforehand.

[_why me]

And it all happened even before the "sealing" power was, per JSJr's own claims, restored to the earth. Sort of a retroactive sealing to anyone JSJr had boinked beforehand.

I didn't get that from reading don bradley's piece but I could only read a portion of it.

Were you there during the boinking? Or is this a matter of opinion?

[_why me]

Let's try this again. Was Fanny Alger married to Joseph Smith?

This is a yes or no question.

What do you think?

[_Darth J]

Let's try this again. Was Fanny Alger married to Joseph Smith?

This is a yes or no question.

What do you think?

Of course he wasn't married to her. Joseph Smith had one wife: Emma. And then he had a lot of partners in his serial adultery.

[_why me]

Of course he wasn't married to her. Joseph Smith had one wife: Emma. And then he had a lot of partners in his serial adultery.

http://www.josephsmithspolygamy.com/Fan ... ltery.html

I think that they were married but it couldn't be recognized by law. This was the problem. But for most members who were close at hand, nothing nasty was occuring. All was legal. And this would have been the position of her parents. They saw nothing nasty in their daughters relatiion with Joseph Smith.

For example: in europe there are muslims who have more than one wife. But legally these women are not recognized as being married but by the muslims these women are married. It becomes unclear waters when this is happening.

[_Themis]

I didn't get that from reading don bradley's piece but I could only read a portion of it.

Were you there during the boinking? Or is this a matter of opinion?

I see whyme is back asking questions after avoiding them on other threads.

[_Darth J]

I think that they were married but it couldn't be recognized by law.

That means BY DEFINITION they were not married. MARRIAGE IS A LEGAL RELATIONSHIP.

"I think this chemical is water but it doesn't have any hydrogen or oxygen atoms."

This was the problem. But for most members who were close at hand, nothing nasty was occuring.

See: Argument from ignorance

But yeah, nothing nasty was happening. A married adult man in a position of authority promises that this teenage girl and her family will get into heaven if he can “F” her.

Are we talking about: (a) David Koresh, (b) Warren Jeffs, (c) Joseph Smith, or (d) all of the above?

All was legal.

You already conceded that it was not legal.

And this would have been the position of her parents. They saw nothing nasty in their daughters relatiion with Joseph Smith.

Nor did all those faithful Branch Davidians see anything nasty in letting David Koresh “F” their adolescent daughters. So that makes everything okay.

For example: in europe there are muslims who have more than one wife. But legally these women are not recognized as being married but by the muslims these women are married. It becomes unclear waters when this is happening.

No, it is not "unclear" at all. They are cohabitating, and have no marital legal status. As a matter of law, they are not married.

[_Brackite]

Why Me:

Marriage is a legal relationship.

Please indicate in which jurisdiction in the United States a purported marriage between Joseph Smith and anyone else, when he was already married to Emma, would have been legally recognized.

Which is one reason why fanny could marry solomon custer without any hitches. But she was sealed to Joseph Smith to my understanding.

The sexual relationship between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger likely occurred in the Year of 1835. Joseph Smith did Not receive the Sealing Keys until April of 1836.
The Following is From the Poster Seven here:

Nevo,
The minutes of that meeting originated from Doctrine and Covenants 68:

SECTION 68
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Hiram, Ohio, November 1831, at the request of Orson Hyde, Luke S. Johnson, Lyman E. Johnson, and William E. McLellin

6 Wherefore, be of good cheer, and do not fear, for I the Lord am with you, and will stand by you; and ye shall bear record of me, even Jesus Christ, that I am the Son of the living God, that I was, that I am, and that I am to come.
7 This is the word of the Lord unto you, my servant Orson Hyde, and also unto my servant Luke Johnson, and unto my servant Lyman Johnson, and unto my servant William E. McLellin, and unto all the faithful elders of my church—
8 aGo ye into all the world, preach the gospel to every creature, acting in the authority which I have given you, baptizing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.
9 And he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be bdamned.
10 And he that believeth shall be blest with asigns following, even as it is written.
11 And unto you it shall be given to know the signs of the times, and the signs of the coming of the Son of Man;
12 And of as many as the Father shall bear record, to you shall be given power to seal them up unto eternal life. Amen.

The word seal is used as a general term throughout the Bible and can refer to different things. My issue is not with having the power to do something but with having the keys necessary to authorize the use of that power. (i.e. to seal marriages for exaltation as required for meeting the conditions of the law set forth in section 132)


The opinion of Gregory Prince does not change canonized scripture. Joseph Smith was not anointed with the sealing KEYS until 1836. As a Priesthood holder, you do not have the authorization of the Lord to use that power however you please. You must have certain keys conferred upon you for the associated ordinance or calling. This is doctrine. Whether he received the revelation on polygamy in 1831 is not relevant. The point is that he did not have authorization from God to use it yet.

After this vision closed, Joseph and Oliver saw three separate visions in which ancient prophets appeared to them to restore priesthood keys necessary for the latter-day work of the Lord. The prophet Moses appeared and committed to them “the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth.” Elias came and committed to them “the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham.” (See Doctrine and Covenants 110:11–12.)
Then, in another glorious vision, Joseph and Oliver saw the prophet Elijah (see Doctrine and Covenants 110:13–16). The coming of Elijah was so important that the ancient prophet Malachi had prophesied of it centuries earlier, and the Savior had repeated the prophecy to the Nephites (see Malachi 4:5–6; 3 Nephi 25:5–6; 26:1–2). Elijah came to commit to Joseph and Oliver the keys of sealing—the power to bind and validate in the heavens all ordinances performed on the earth. The restoration of the sealing power was necessary to prepare the world for the Savior’s Second Coming, for without it, “the whole earth would be utterly wasted at his coming” (Joseph Smith—History 1:39).

Joseph's evolution in understanding the sealing power is a seperate issue from whether he was authorized to use it.

Doctrine and Covenants 132 gives instructions to Joseph Smith on the conditions of the law to practice plural marriage. This revelation was given for that purpose. It says that he must be anointed with the keys to hold this power. It is the LAW of God.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many wives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.

7 And verily I say unto you, that the conditions of this law are these: All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.

Any sealing that was done without these keys was in violation of God’s law.

The Lord even repeats himself in case Joseph missed it the first time

19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood;

Lets look at the significance of what it means to hold “the keys” and why the Lord would have required this for plural marriage:

From Elder Nelson

Keys are important and valuable. Most of us carry keys in pockets or purses wherever we go. Other keys are not only important and valuable; they are precious, powerful, and invisible! They have eternal significance. They are the keys of the priesthood. 1
The Prophet Joseph Smith taught “the fundamental principles, government, and doctrine of the Church are vested in the keys of the kingdom.” 2 Those keys refer to the right to preside over priesthood authority in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Keys carry the right to preside over a local organization of the Church, such as a stake, a ward or branch, a mission or district, a priesthood quorum, or a temple. Keys are conferred by the laying on of hands by one who holds proper authority and whose authority is known to the Church. 3

All the keys of the kingdom of God on earth are held by members of the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. The President of the Church—the senior Apostle—presides over the entire Church and is the only person on earth who exercises all the keys in their fulness. 4 He delegates authority by conferring or authorizing the conferral of keys upon other bearers of the priesthood in their specific offices and callings. 5
Priesthood is the authority of God delegated to man to minister for the salvation of men. “The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood.” 6

We distinguish between holding the priesthood and holding keys of the priesthood.
When an individual is given keys, he does not receive additional priesthood. What he has is the right to direct the work of the priesthood.

Just as the important steps of preparation and permission pertain to medicine (and other professions), they also relate to priesthood service. Those who hold the priesthood—Aaronic and Melchizedek—have authority to render priesthood service. As agents of the Lord, they have the right to perform sacred ordinances of the gospel. Keys authorize the performance of that service.


Period Three: Modern Times. The restoration of priesthood keys is one of the many miracles of this, the dispensation of the fulness of times. 22 As the Prophet taught, “The keys have to be brought from heaven whenever the Gospel is sent.” 23 In 1820 our Heavenly Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith. In May 1829 John the Baptist conferred the Aaronic Priesthood upon Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. 24 In so doing, he conferred “the keys of the ministering of angels, and of the gospel of repentance, and of baptism by immersion for the remission of sins.” 25 Shortly thereafter the Prophet and his associate received the Melchizedek Priesthood under the hands of Peter, James, and John. 26 Joseph Smith had keys to organize the Church, send missionaries, and ordain priesthood leaders.
Later, the Lord spoke to Joseph and Oliver of others to whom additional specific keys of the priesthood had been committed. 27 Each, in turn, conferred these keys upon Joseph and Oliver:
• Moses delivered the keys of the gathering of Israel and the leading of the ten tribes; 28
• Elias, the keys of the Abrahamic covenant; 29
• And Elijah, the keys of the sealing authority.
[given in 1836]

Joseph Smith conferred those restored priesthood keys upon all of the Apostles called in his day. 31 In turn, these keys have been transferred through the generations to the present leaders of the Church. Today, the President of the Church actively holds every key held by “all those who have received a dispensation at any time from the beginning of the creation.” 32

Link: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9477




Joseph Smith could Not have Possibility been Sealed to Fanny Alger in the Year of 1835.