Joseph Smith Legacy (Consolidation)

[_why me]

Here is the legacy of Joseph Smith:

determination: Joseph Smith did not give up even after a very rough start. He continued because he believed. His letters to his wife were full of heartwarming thoughts about family and god. Also, he struggled with his own sins but continued in the work even though he did at one point wish to runaway with Emma and a select few to escape the obligation of being a leader of a church.

Also, when we consider his age when he began the church, he was quite young. This brought him a lot of responsibity and anguish. But he continued amidst much suffering until he was murdered by his enemies. For his 38 years, he accomplished a lot. Thus, his legacy contains good qualities: never quit, continue with what feels right, struggle on, and do what god requires regardless of the consequences.

[_cafe crema]

I like the rich liturgy and other aspects one of which is you can be a good Catholic and ignore quite a bit of it in the process. :-).

Don't tell an opus dei member this, they may disagree with you. And opus dei has much power within the catholic church because of their loyality to the faith. Also, a priest would disagree with you. A priest would say that nothing should be ignored because your soul depends on it.

The catholic church has many more rules than the LDS church to follow. Not going to church on a sunday is a sin. Not going to church on a day of obligation is a sin. Plus, there are retreats and feast days to attend. And for motal sins one must go to a priest for a good confession. Then, there is the praying of the rosary and the saying of the divine mercy. If one lives the catholic faith, one is not too far from living the Mormon faith.

Catholics are not required to "attend" Feast Days, or retreats, neither are they required to pray the Rosary or The Divine Mercy. Catholics are required to confess mortal sins and to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation, in the US there are between 5 and 8 days of obligation. Whyme is not the Catholic he claims to be.

[_Themis]

It is mormonsim or nothing for a lot of people. It was for me at least.

I don't think that this is true. Many Mormons head over to the UU church because it is the polar opposite of the LDS church. But I think that many find that church lacking. Others head over to the catholic church because it also has a truth claim and a top down structure. They can find a home there within the truth claim and within the celebratory Mass.

Others can become atheists or anything else they chose to become.

So another words you think it is true. The UU is a church that allows atheists and agnostics.

Now I know you run away and don't answer so many questions and slink back in other threads like this one to repeat the same crap, but how about answering Brade's question.

Do you believe that if the church Joseph started was a fraud it would not exist today, and the broader question, do you believe a church started as a fraud will fail? I am going to keep asking this question, although I fully expect you to keep running.

[_why me]

Catholics are not required to "attend" Feast Days, or retreats, neither are they required to pray the Rosary or The Divine Mercy. Catholics are required to confess mortal sins and to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation, in the US there are between 5 and 8 days of obligation. Whyme is not the Catholic he claims to be.

http://www.catholicbible101.com/therosary.htm

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima26.htm

We Must Pray the Rosary Every Day

When the Mother of God gives us a command that comes from the Throne of God in Heaven, we are not at liberty to reject it. It becomes essential at that point. And Our Lady clearly indicated that we must pray the Rosary every day. This is a command. This is not peripheral. This is not something we can take or leave.

We do not have just a casual need either. It's not that, well we can make it, but if we say the Rosary we'll get a little more grace and this will help with something. No. We don't just have a casual need of Our Lady's Rosary, but an urgent, desperate need. She appeared to tell us just that. And to give us, Her children, hope in these last times.

I kinda feel sorry for café. She is so focused on my own belief system that it skews her own belief system.

[_why me]

So another words you think it is true. The UU is a church that allows atheists and agnostics.

The UU church does allow agnostics or atheists but most of the Mormons that head to that church do not do so as atheists but as a halfway house from Mormonism. This is my impression of those who have posted on ex and postmo sites where they have joined the UU church.

I will answer your questions later. This is the first time that I have seen them.

[_cafe crema]

Catholics are not required to "attend" Feast Days, or retreats, neither are they required to pray the Rosary or The Divine Mercy. Catholics are required to confess mortal sins and to attend Mass on Sundays and Holy Days of obligation, in the US there are between 5 and 8 days of obligation. Whyme is not the Catholic he claims to be.

http://www.catholicbible101.com/therosary.htm

http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/fatima26.htm

We Must Pray the Rosary Every Day

When the Mother of God gives us a command that comes from the Throne of God in Heaven, we are not at liberty to reject it. It becomes essential at that point. And Our Lady clearly indicated that we must pray the Rosary every day. This is a command. This is not peripheral. This is not something we can take or leave.

We do not have just a casual need either. It's not that, well we can make it, but if we say the Rosary we'll get a little more grace and this will help with something. No. We don't just have a casual need of Our Lady's Rosary, but an urgent, desperate need. She appeared to tell us just that. And to give us, Her children, hope in these last times.

I kinda feel sorry for café. She is so focused on my own belief system that it skews her own belief system.

Showing once again that you get your Catholicism from the internet not from actually being a Catholic. Catholics are not required to say the rosary, period. I am focused on the fact that your "belief system" is perceived by people here as Catholic, it's not. You have a long history of posts defending LDS and criticizing Catholics and Catholicism you are anti-Catholic and I don't want your perverse understanding of Catholicism to be regarded as accurate. People here are questioning even outright disbelieving that you are or ever were a Mormon, saying you show no understanding of Mormonism, the same holds for your being a Catholic.

[_Themis]

I will answer your questions later. This is the first time that I have seen them.

I find that hard to believe considering you have been asked multiple times by myself, Brade and others even though you continued to post in the same thread.

[_why me]

Showing once again that you get your Catholicism from the internet not from actually being a Catholic. Catholics are not required to say the rosary, period. I am focused on the fact that your "belief system" is perceived by people here as Catholic, it's not. You have a long history of posts defending LDS and criticizing Catholics and Catholicism you are anti-Catholic and I don't want your perverse understanding of Catholicism to be regarded as accurate. People here are questioning even outright disbelieving that you are or ever were a Mormon, saying you show no understanding of Mormonism, the same holds for your being a Catholic.

Showing once again that you know nothing about Catholicism. What could I have done to prove you wrong about rosary, if not go to the internet? I have been critical of the catholic faith on the catholic taliban site where exmormon catholics and antimormon catholics post negatives about the LDS church. I just gave their criticism back to them as catholics. No catholic should spend too much time being critical of the LDS church since many criticisms could be written about the catholic church. That has always been my point.

I must admit that on internet forums I am unique and because of this, people can get just a little confused. But that is not my problem. :=)

[_moksha]

Ceeboo, have you considered the dramatic effect that remaining a conservative Republican poses when one leaves the Church? To have one pillar of righteousness remain while the other has fallen? That is enough to put Ozymandias on Prolixin indefinitely.

[_why me]

So another words you think it is true. The UU is a church that allows atheists and agnostics.

Now I know you run away and don't answer so many questions and slink back in other threads like this one to repeat the same s***, but how about answering Brade's question.

Do you believe that if the church Joseph started was a fraud it would not exist today, and the broader question, do you believe a church started as a fraud will fail? I am going to keep asking this question, although I fully expect you to keep running.

I think that the LDS truth claim is quite compelling especially when one reads the life of Joseph Smith. I try to keep an open mind about it all. I did receive a witness about the Book of Mormon. Without that witness, I would not be here today defending the LDS church.

When one looks at the beginnings of the LDS church, one can see a struggle within the life of Joseph Smith. He was not exactly having a grand ol' time as leader of the LDS church in the very beginning. He faced poverty, homelessness with emma, loss of a child due to a tar and feathering early on, difficulties with members leaving the faith etc. As a 'fraudster', he had steel cajones. By the time he was 26 years old, he had seen a lot and experienced a lot as leader of the LDS church. And much of what he experienced was not good for him or for his family. But he soldiered on regardless. And if one reads one of his letters to emma, one can see a reference to running away from it all with her and starting a new life because of all the pain. But that was just a fantasy. He continued with the work that he believed that he was called to do. Quite compelling.

I do think that if it were all a fraud, it would have failed much earlier on. Someone would have come clean with the fraud. Too many people in on it for it to be successful. 11 men confirming what they saw or felt with their hands plus their wives, plus sidney or whoever...would have come clean with the fraud. Joseph Smith seems to have no concern about the witnesses ever coming clean because he was that sure of his experience and their experiences.

So, I keep an open mind about it all.