why me wrote:
I think that the LDS truth claim is quite compelling especially when one reads the life of Joseph Smith. I try to keep an open mind about it all. I did receive a witness about the Book of Mormon. Without that witness, I would not be here today defending the LDS church.
You mean close minded then. You admit that without the witness you would not be defending the LDS church. If one would not defend or believe the claims of the LDS church or Joseph without the witness, then the evidence must not be compelling enough to believe. Your witness must also not be great enough to keep you as an active member. Many of us have also had witnesses. It was not until I realized it was an internal expereince that I interpreted as being from God that I was open minded enough to see the evidence did not support Joseph claims.
When one looks at the beginnings of the LDS church, one can see a struggle within the life of Joseph Smith. He was not exactly having a grand ol' time as leader of the LDS church in the very beginning. He faced poverty, homelessness with emma, loss of a child due to a tar and feathering early on, difficulties with members leaving the faith etc. As a 'fraudster', he had steel cajones.
Life at the beginning was actually not bad at all. Pious frauds or frauds do not necessarily have wonderful lives, and most likely do struggle. You are creating a straw-man of what a fraudster is suppose to be, and how they will act. You want to make the fraudster into something less then human so that if Joseph is human then he must not have been a fraud. Many people commit fraud. They can be very nice and good people in so many other areas of life. People are also very good at deluding themselves. Justifying what they are doing in their own minds. Hardships do not make people necessarily admit wrong doing, especially if they have already convinced themselves that they have done nothing wrong. I really don't' see why Joseph would go out and admit to making the Book of Mormon up, due to some hardships. His trying to sell the Book of Mormon copyright shows how much he really cared about the Book of Mormon.
By the time he was 26 years old, he had seen a lot and experienced a lot as leader of the LDS church. And much of what he experienced was not good for him or for his family. But he soldiered on regardless. And if one reads one of his letters to emma, one can see a reference to running away from it all with her and starting a new life because of all the pain. But that was just a fantasy. He continued with the work that he believed that he was called to do. Quite compelling.
I think he had already convinced himself, and no he was not going through as many hardships as you want to suggest. Why is it we forget all the rest when defending the church. Joseph did fairly well for himself as leader. He made a number of mistakes, but then I am sure you think fraudsters would never make any mistakes. :) by the way Few people are really fraudsters. Most just commit certain dishonesty for financial, religious, etc reasons. They are usually good people in most other areas.
I do think that if it were all a fraud, it would have failed much earlier on.
I really doubt it was all a fraud. I think Joseph believed in many parts of it, some he may have convinced himself over time about. This really is common. I assume you think Jim Jones was a fruad. That he was doing it for power and money. Yet in the end he killed himself for it.
Someone would have come clean with the fraud. Too many people in on it for it to be successful. 11 men confirming what they saw or felt with their hands plus their wives, plus sidney or whoever...would have come clean with the fraud. Joseph Smith seems to have no concern about the witnesses ever coming clean because he was that sure of his experience and their experiences.
Joseph was skilled in treasure seeking. A skill in getting people to believe and see things that really are not there. Joseph may have been able to do it on his own, or with the help of one or two people. The rest he can convince. It's not like the 11 witnesses were skeptics. They were believers, which is the most important ingredient in fooling a person.
So, I keep an open mind about it all.
Obviously not, but it still does not answer my broader question whether you think a person can be successful in staring a religion based on fraudulent activity.