ZLMB -- Shadow or Reality?

[_huckelberry]

MsJack's comments are on target I think. I can think of a couple of other observations. In its first year ZLMB had a large LDS majority. There were people Like Dan Peterson making substantial posts and arguments so that LDS people could feel like they were participating in an interesting group effort.

It was not all nice but having moderators from differnet points of view kept the idea of balance somewhere in the background. When I first visited it some anti had made a tactical blunder and was being persued by pages of ridicule from some thirty different people.

It was large enough that food fights could continue right along with a variety of discussions. I confess I liked it. However I think most subjects got covered as far as the participants had much to contribute. A conversation is difficult to continue without end.

I remeber a colorful image from Mr Peterson noting he felt like a drunkard returnng through the saloon swinging door trying to pick up over and over the same arguments. He claimed to study the oddities of antimormon obsessions. That justification may have workded for a while but left him only with the continuation of ending the making of substantive arguments on the message board. I do not think he was the only one following that path. The change left quite a few followers complaining about there being too many critics.

That leaves out the epic hysterics that brought it all to an end. I believe that last matter is documented somewhere in the past on this board. Something about false reports on a presentation left people no longer on speaking terms.

[_Doctor Scratch]

This is a good question, AS. I've often heard the old stalwarts describe ZLMB as being this great, fantastic board, but a perusal of the old threads has always made me wonder why they're saying this. It's not as if the topics are all that different from the ones we see nowadays. You'll sometimes see the "old timers" mention the moderating, but again: I'm just not seeing how that makes all that much of a distinction. Yes: you remove some of the hardcore offenders, but the Z moderating practices--from what I can tell--did virtually nothing to remove the snark and/or personal attacks. The other thing you hear is that there were "epic conversations" on "substantive issues." Again: where are these, exactly? You can find in-depth discussions on various facets of Mormonism here, on MDD, and elsewhere. I suppose one could make a case that there was a higher density of this sort of thing on Z, but in my experience, I just ain't seein' it.

Maybe it's just nostalgia? I think that ZLMB, for many of the people who participated, was their first real foray into the world of online Mormonism, and it may have felt somewhat like going off to college for the first time: like this whole new world has opened up.

[_Blixa]

What I don't want is moralistic trolling, the crap detritus of neu-atheism, mopologetic data-warriors, hubristic ignorance (it's not adorable), ahistorical political rants and pervs.

Help me a bit, Blixa, and remind me which of these categories I am in? Maybe 'crap detritus of neu-atheism'?

Heh. Let's just say you way overestimate Bill Maher.

(Though, honestly, I didn't watch the Cornel West clip yet. I've followed brother West for over twenty years now and his first book is extremely good. I should probably go back and reread his second book now, too, as I think I would view it quite differently.)

[_Dr. Shades]

That leaves out the epic hysterics that brought it all to an end. I believe that last matter is documented somewhere in the past on this board. Something about false reports on a presentation left people no longer on speaking terms.

Yes, that's correct. Doctor Scratch documented, evaluated, and summarized the matter in an epic post, which you can read here.

(Once you're done reading that, the thread that single-handedly destroyed ZLMB, the one to which Doctor Scratch refers, is here.)

This is a good question, AS. I've often heard the old stalwarts describe ZLMB as being this great, fantastic board, but a perusal of the old threads has always made me wonder why they're saying this. . . Maybe it's just nostalgia?

That's a huge part of it, yes.

I think that ZLMB, for many of the people who participated, was their first real foray into the world of online Mormonism, and it may have felt somewhat like going off to college for the first time: like this whole new world has opened up.

I'd say that that pretty much encapsulates it. Good job.

Anyway, I think believers might be more nostalgic than disbelievers over the halcyon days of ZLMB because, at the beginning, they strove for "balance" between both sides. Unfortunately, as MsJack talked about, the Mopologetic defeats began to pile up to the point that they could no longer be ignored, balance or no balance.

I knew that the site owner, a believing Mormon, had gotten desperate when he instituted a frantic gambit to correct the situation. His solution was to restrict all critics to posting only three times per day, maximum. (Talk about comical! If the Mopologists are losing all the debates, the solution is NOT for the Mopologists to come up with better arguments; the solution is to simply muzzle the critics. LOL!) Fortunately that little experiment was shouted down rather quickly.

Even so, I was as surprised as everyone else when the board was utterly destroyed by that one solitary thread, 28 pages long notwithstanding. I thought ZLMB had more staying power, but I guess not. Lesson learned, I suppose.

[_mentalgymnast]

All,

From what I have gathered, it seems like ZLMB was the pinnacle of Mormon related discussion fora. There appears to have been moderate and fair moderation with participants from both sides of the aisle. It's only shortcoming appears to be that it's dead and gone, with no hope of resurrection. Several boards seem to have tried to resurrect the interaction of ZLMB, usually with a slight tweak, but none have ever managed to pull it off.

Questions:

1) Is the above summary a reality?

yes. Those were good days.

2) Was ZLMB just a shadow of the above description, but people just remember it being better than it was?

I enjoyed it because of the wide ranging and intelligent conversation from opposing camps. I could actually learn something new/different and go away with some food for thought. That doesn't happen here anymore.

3) If yes to #1, what could be done to bring something like it back to life?

I don't think it will happen. There is really very little that is new under the sun when it comes to Mormon related discussions on the whole.

Sometimes I'll pop in here to see if there is, and there isn't. A whole bunch of rhetorical posturing, very little else...except for bad mouthing and poking fun at those that don't have the same world view as you do.

Regards,
MG

[_EAllusion]

It's worth mentioning that ZLMB's moderation had some biases and quirks. Pac wouldn't allow the banning of Pahoran, for instance, even though that would've been the fate of many other posters if they were posting the same material. And, in an effort to save the board from dying at the end, there was a push to have moderation that was openly biased towards LDS posters.

The whole "transcript" thread wasn't the death of the board per se so much as a big straw on the camel's back. There had already been a migration to FAIR prior to that. Juliann was already trying to pimp that option to her board friends prior to that thread.

I think the golden ageyness of it is a bit exaggerated, but the OP is on the right track. I think the main thing ZLMB had going for it is that it attracted some reasonably intelligent folk, including players in the subject, who were freshly discussing various topics.

While DCP (and Hamblin) posted on ZLMB, they posted just like they post these days. Old dogs, apparently. There were some stronger apologeticish posters like Clark Goble, Kevin Barney, Groove, Kevin Christensen, etc generating a fair amount of content. And on the opposite side you got more Metcalfe and co. People like David Wright occasionally showed up. And that's like when an accomplished biologist shows up in the middle of a creationist board. crap gets real, in a hurry, for the crackpots.

Blixa -

I thought the atheists on ZLMB were pretty decent. Granted, I'm referring to myself in that group. There were only a few people like alienward. Mostly it was people like Gad, me, Beastie, Analytics, etc. I'm not sure what your beef would be with that.

[_Nightlion]

I knew that the site owner, a believing Mormon,

I am confused. ZLMB stands for what then? Not Zion's Lighthouse Ministry Board? ala Sandra Tanner?

[_Blixa]

Blixa -

I thought the atheists on ZLMB were pretty decent. Granted, I'm referring to myself in that group. There were only a few people like alienward. Mostly it was people like Gad, me, Beastie, Analytics, etc. I'm not sure what your beef would be with that.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't talking about ZLMB at all at that point in my post. My remarks were about what I would like to see on a "perfect" board and "moralistic trolling, the crap detritus of neu-atheism, mopologetic data-warriors, hubristic ignorance (it's not adorable), ahistorical political rants and pervs" referred to the kinds of things on this board which I would hope would be absent on a better one (one which likely could never exist).

[_Nightlion]

Blixa -

I thought the atheists on ZLMB were pretty decent. Granted, I'm referring to myself in that group. There were only a few people like alienward. Mostly it was people like Gad, me, Beastie, Analytics, etc. I'm not sure what your beef would be with that.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clear. I wasn't talking about ZLMB at all at that point in my post. My remarks were about what I would like to see on a "perfect" board and "moralistic trolling, the crap detritus of neu-atheism, mopologetic data-warriors, hubristic ignorance (it's not adorable), ahistorical political rants and pervs" referred to the kinds of things on this board which I would hope would be absent on a better one (one which likely could never exist).

Blixa has got her red pencil out. Watch it!
Any place for a half decent pareidolianist on your perfect board?

[_MsJack]

Nice summary, EA. I believe I've brought up Pacumeni's preferential treatment of Pahoran around these parts before.

I am confused. ZLMB stands for what then? Not Zion's Lighthouse Ministry Board? ala Sandra Tanner?

The Tanners forum was called ULMB (Utah Lighthouse Message Board). ZLMB (Zion's Lighthouse Message Board) was started in part because the moderation at ULMB was so one-sided and played heavily against Mormons.

So there's some serious irony in MDDB becoming the Mormon equivalent of ULMB.