Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

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_Themis
_Emeritus
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Themis »

why me wrote:
Maybe it went over your head. Read the post slowly and with some thought. And put yourself as a fraudster in jail with your follow fraudsters free as a bird and some of these follow fraudsters had abandoned you already. What would you be thinking in prison facing death as he did in liberty jail. if you were Joseph Smith?


I doubt it even entered your head. You make up crap about how fraudsters are suppose to act you can't back up. At least others have already. Just read some of Darth's posts, but then you are not interested in that. I would not think they are going to come clean. Why in hell would they? People don't admit to things when they don't have to, and many don't even after being caught. How many murders still proclaims innocence to the end. Why can't you open your mind and try to be objective when looking at how people actually behave.
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_Themis
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Themis »

Whyme,

Explain why any supposed person involved with Joseph would come clean just because they are on the outs with Joseph and he is in jail or dead. It needs to be better then they just wanted to get back at Joseph, since doing so would out themselves as well. It's like a bank robber going to the cops to out their partner who took all the money and ran.
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_Darth J
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Darth J »

why me wrote:
Darth J wrote:
You don't get to have it both ways. Either the Mormons were ignored or they were persecuted. Which one do you want it to be?

You are also following Mentalgymnast's question-begging, and adding equivocation to it. What do you mean by "that time:" the time when a third party wrote this statement in Joseph Smith's voice, or the uncorroborated time when Moroni allegedly said this to Joseph Smith about a decade and a half prior?


Joseph Smith was speaking of the future and just how his name would be remembered. He was speaking of his own present moment.


His own present moment was the future..........

Yes, it is all clear to me now. "I will do it yesterday." Something like that?

Most everything that we have from Joseph Smith is from a second hand source. Joseph Smith was not that concerned about his own place in the world. He knew what he had to do and he did it. Now it would be wonderful to have more in his own hand. But we don't. So with almost everything that we have from him, we can say did he say it or didn't he.


And Joseph's lack of concern about his own place in the world must be why he received self-serving revelations like D&C 132, where Emma is damned if she doesn't accept polygamy and Joseph gets to do it even if she rejects it, and D&C 124, where Jesus became a stockbroker so that people would pay for a nice house for Joseph to live in.

So, anyway, Why Me: ignored or persecuted. Which is it?
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

mentalgymnast wrote:Can we be assured that Joseph Smith himself said this?


Probably not. The Cult of Personality usually occurs after the person dies, and the interested parties are trying to make a living from the movement. They begin to attribute things said to the Personality that was never said in order to further their own interests. Whether it's Mao, Muhammed, or Joseph Smith you can be assured they all were surrounded by people who were desperate to secure their own fortune. You cannot be involved in a a cult of personality and not realize there has to be a successor and a continuation of the fraud. The success of the tale depends on your ability propagate the founder's tales into mythos.

It is what it is... And they realize a lot of people need something greater than themselves in order to quell that existential crisis we all feel at one time or another.

- VRDRC4M
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _Fence Sitter »

why me wrote:

Most everything that we have from Joseph Smith is from a second hand source. Joseph Smith was not that concerned about his own place in the world. He knew what he had to do and he did it. Now it would be wonderful to have more in his own hand. But we don't. So with almost everything that we have from him, we can say did he say it or didn't he.


You are confused about what a second hand source is or are unaware of vast amount of first hand sources that we have on Joseph Smith.

I suggest you look at the http://josephsmithpapers.org/
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_mentalgymnast

Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

One could argue, and rather successfully I might add, that the perceived foibles and the revelations of Joseph Smith acted as catalysts which ultimately led to the main body of the saints being expelled from Nauvoo and out to the Great Basin. It was from this point on as the saints settled the western lands and the Great Salt Lake valley that the critical mass of church membership evolved into what we see today as the Salt Lake church. It is from this SL church that we now have what has evolved into the modern CofJCofLDS.

If Joseph Smith had been foible/mistake free, as Mary Baker claimed to be, and had not received revelations that were troublesome and awkward to the religionists of his day, he and the main body of the church would have had a different history. On that I think we can agree.

For the church to exist as it does today it was necessary that Joseph Smith's name be held for good and evil among those that would ultimately be responsible for pushing the saints out west.

The question could be asked, how would early LDS church have evolved if it had remained status quo/non-controversial and had not provided any internal impetus/stimuli that moved towards a rejection from the persecutors and many of the general populace of the time? Would the church have ultimately been able to carry forth its four fold mission successfully as it is today if the work had not been established from the mountain of the Lords house in the tops of the mountains and the everlasting hills?

It's an interesting question to ponder.

To pronounce that his name would be known for good and evil throughout the world was a bold claim to make whether he made it at the age of 17 or at the age of thirty-three. In addition to this claim, he also anticipated

... "a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories…from the days of Adam even to the present time" (D&C 128:18). This restoration would encompass "all the truth the Christian world possessed" (TPJS, p. 376)—including much that had been lost or discarded—and, in addition, revelations "hid from before the foundation of the world" (TPJS, p. 309). His teachings were often in contrast to postbiblical additions, subtractions, and changes. He said that he intended "to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world" (TPJS, p. 366).


and then we have:

In a revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet at Hiram, Ohio, in October 1831 the Lord revealed: "The keys of the kingdom of God are committed unto man on the earth, and from thence shall the gospel roll forth unto the ends of the earth, as the stone which is cut out of the mountain without hands shall roll forth, until it has filled the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 65:2). On another occasion Joseph Smith prophesied that the "Church will fill North and South America; it will fill the world" (Conference Report, April 8, 1898, p. 57, see also History of the Church 6:318-319).


Bold claims.

And I would argue that Joseph Smith's claims and future prophecies concerning the work that would come forth from the restoration is qualitatively different and unique among the other so called "prophets" or religionists of his day.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast

Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Darth J wrote:
The gospel preached by the Strangites is in fact going forth to all nations, via the world wide web.



Awesome. Sounds like quite the operation. I'm impressed.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast

Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Darth J wrote:...other religious innovators did not tend to be as arrogant as Joseph Smith, so they usually were concerned more about their message, rather than their own name, being known all over the place.


The message moves forward as a result how the religious innovator gets the message out. The means. The how. The what. Joseph Smith's message got out to the world at large in a way that is unique and amazing. For the message to get out, his name had to be out there, up close and personal, and with a certain degree of notoriety.

And it is, for both good and evil. If not, my guess is people would have lost interest. Look at the nightly news. What do people pay attention to? Controversy. Good mixed with evil, and such.

Regards,
MG
_mentalgymnast

Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _mentalgymnast »

Darth J wrote:
And why would Joseph Smith care what happened after he died, anyway?


I think that the evidence clearly shows that he did. It was important to him that the church carry forth its mandate/mission to move throughout the whole earth to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

I think it's fairly obvious that he did care about whether or not this would be the result of his work/legacy. And he knew it would have to happen after his death.

Regards,
MG
_beastie
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Re: Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

Post by _beastie »

The vast majority of the inhabitants of this planet have never heard of Joseph Smith. Heck, the vast majority of inhabitants of my TOWN have never heard of him.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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