Joseph Smith's Personal Claim to Fame.

[_mentalgymnast]

A footnote to WHOSE history?

World history. United States history.

You have to admit, the CofJCofLDS is much more decidedly on its way to becoming more than just a footnote in history than the Strangite movement is.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

No, it isn't. I am asking about uniqueness about a prediction attributed to Joseph Smith about his notoriety versus what other religious visionaries said about their own movements going out in the world.

Yes it is. You said, "...what is objectively unique and amazing about your version of "Joseph Smith's message" compared to other religious movements by other religious visionaries started within shouting distance of the Second Great Awakening?"

I delivered.

Regards,
MG

[_mentalgymnast]

I never said she made the exact same prophecy about herself as a ghost writer attributed to Joseph Smith years after the alleged event. I said that other religious visionaries made similar claims about their religious movements being significant in the world.

That is what makes Joseph Smith's, or the angel Moroni's, prophecy so unique. And powerful.

Regards,
MG

[_Darth J]

Are we playing the numbers game, or not?

The point that some have been attempting to make is that the CofJCofLDS is an isolated and unaccounted for whipper snapper religious organization without any influence or merit worth considering outside of the Rocky Mountain region. I'm showing, at least statistically, that this is not the case...as though it needed to even be a point of controversy.

Interesting.

Interesting that you completely misunderstand your own argument and refutations of it?

You haven't referred to a single statistic other than the number of countries that the LDS Church has at least a nominal presence in. But you can't quite make up your mind if fulfillment of this prophecy requires some idiosyncratic individual in a given territory to have heard about Joseph Smith and formed an opinion about his moral character, or if he needs vast, world-wide fame such that he is on the tip of people's tongues all over the place.

I should remind you that the prophecy does not account for people who have heard about Joseph Smith, but are indifferent. They have to care enough about him to think he is good or evil. Far-flung apathy does not fulfill this prophecy.

But, as I already said, raw numbers are not necessary to refute the argument you made in the OP. You are saying that Joseph Smith could not have predicted this without divine guidance, and you have gone on to say that the prediction attributed to him is unique among religious visionaries. That is not true. Other religious visionaries have successfully predicted that their own movements would become known throughout the world.

No, we're not playing the numbers game. And yes, before you bring it up, you can have it both ways. This point of referene will most likely be your next attack.

Regards,
MG

Why are the Strangites just a "footnote," instead of part of that prophecy being fulfilled?

Hint: The answer may have something to do with you commingling faith in Joseph Smith with faith in the modern LDS Church.

[_Darth J]

A footnote to WHOSE history?

World history. United States history.

You have to admit, the CofJCofLDS is much more decidedly on its way to becoming more than just a footnote in history than the Strangite movement is.

Regards,
MG

How do you know that the Strangites are not part of that prophecy being fulfilled?

And the LDS Church is going to have to get past mere replacement level of its membership and do something about retaining members if it wants to be more than a footnote.

[_Darth J]

I never said she made the exact same prophecy about herself as a ghost writer attributed to Joseph Smith years after the alleged event. I said that other religious visionaries made similar claims about their religious movements being significant in the world.

That is what makes Joseph Smith's, or the angel Moroni's, prophecy so unique. And powerful.

Regards,
MG

Pastor Russell also made unique and powerful prophecies. Jehovah's Witnesses believe those prophecies have come to pass.

[_mentalgymnast]

...you think that the LDS Church is not merely a footnote to history, based on your perspective that in absolute terms, the number of members the LDS Church pretends to have is significant. But relative to the human race in general, and relative to Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, Protestantism, etc., Mormonism---whether in general or specifically the LDS version of it---is just a footnote to history.

Well, relative to the human race and all of its creeds, then yes, you're right to the extent that the church isn't well known in areas where the predominant religion(s) are the order of the day, the week, the centuries. Takes a bit of time to get through or to have any influence upon those kinds of numerical/cultural barriers.

The church is working at it though. Line upon line...here a little, there a little.

Regards,
MG

[_Darth J]

No, it isn't. I am asking about uniqueness about a prediction attributed to Joseph Smith about his notoriety versus what other religious visionaries said about their own movements going out in the world.

Yes it is. You said, "...what is objectively unique and amazing about your version of "Joseph Smith's message" compared to other religious movements by other religious visionaries started within shouting distance of the Second Great Awakening?"

I delivered.

Regards,
MG

In today's lesson, we're going to learn about context, and how I said that in the course of responding to your OP, which was about notoriety, not doctrinal uniqueness.

But again, the FLDS Church believes in all of the doctrines you listed, and its members have caused a great deal of notoriety associated with Joseph Smith's name in the media.

Therefore, the FLDS Church is the true church.

[_Darth J]

...you think that the LDS Church is not merely a footnote to history, based on your perspective that in absolute terms, the number of members the LDS Church pretends to have is significant. But relative to the human race in general, and relative to Islam, Catholicism, Buddhism, Protestantism, etc., Mormonism---whether in general or specifically the LDS version of it---is just a footnote to history.

Well, relative to the human race and all of its creeds, then yes, you're right to the extent that the church isn't well known in areas where the predominant religion(s) are the order of the day, the week, the centuries. Takes a bit of time to get through or to have any influence upon those kinds of numerical/cultural barriers.

The church is working at it though. Line upon line...here a little, there a little.

Regards,
MG

A statement that is equally applicable to The Church of Jesus Christ, the Community of Christ, or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Why are you so opposed to these other branches of Mormonism being part of that prophecy being fulfilled?

[_mentalgymnast]

But, as I already said, raw numbers are not necessary to refute the argument you made in the OP. You are saying that Joseph Smith could not have predicted this without divine guidance, and you have gone on to say that the prediction attributed to him is unique among religious visionaries. That is not true. Other religious visionaries have successfully predicted that their own movements would become known throughout the world.

It might be well to quote my OP again.

He called me by name, and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me, and that his name was Moroni; that God had a work for me to do; and that my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds, and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil ... [Joseph Smith—H 1:33]

MG:
Can we be assured that Joseph Smith himself said this? If so, he was rather prescient wasn't he? I've often wondered why he would insert this admission/intuition into the historical record. It seems as though he could just as well have left it out.

In the interview that John Dehlin had with Terryl Givens, Dr. Givens made a comment something to the effect that the restoration sits as it does in a position by which people have to make a choice whether to believe or disbelieve without any absolutely confirming evidence either pro or con, for or against, the truth claims of the church.

This seems to be the case.

It is interesting that Joseph Smith seemed to have been clued in or guessed that this would be so. Or I suppose he could have had the natural foresight to know that he was going to do/teach things that would create a playing field in which doubt would be just as reasonable as belief.

He seems to have been right on target with this "prophecy". Or maybe an angel had something to do with it...

We're left to wonder.

I am still waiting for you to show that Joseph Smith's (angel Moroni's) prophecy is NOT unique among the visionaries of his day. I wasn't even talking about numbers and all the other stuff this thread and your comments have gradually migrated to.

The central points of my OP have become somewhat adulterated and mutated into peripherals.

I think that the two points that I made in my OP still stand independent of all the other "stuff" being thrown around here.

Regards,
MG