The Dude wrote:Mormons can never, ever reconcile LDS doctrine with evolution until they jettison the core belief that God has a human form, and that we have a human form because of God.
We have a human form, with all our specific quirks and flaws, because of evolution - because we evolved to survive on THIS planet and ONLY this planet. We have co-evolved with the plants and animals around us. We continue to evolve.
To take a small but illustrative example, most people of Western European descent have a mutation that lets us keep digesting lactose as adults when the ancestral condition was to lose that ability. This mutation has spread among Europeans because we started keeping cows and using dairy as an important food source, so early Europeans with the mutation out-competed tribes and individuals who didn't have it. In early Africa an independent dairy culture developed and Africans have a different mutation (at the DNA level) that lets them digest lactose into adulthood. So I ask the Mormon prophet: can God's human body digest milk, and does he have the African or the European mutation? Where did he get it? Or does God have more Asian-like (or Lamanite-like) DNA - the ancestral kind that "Adam and Eve" had - so God gets cramps and diarrhea when he eats a pizza with extra cheese?
It works the same for every part of our body. Our anus is right next to our sex organs because we evolved that way, not because it is and always has been a celestial configuration (or useful for exotic sex acts in the eternities). We have boogers and ear wax and body odor because they are advantageous or a byproduct of something that was advantageous or used to be advantageous. None of this makes any sense from a celestial perspective. (The big things don't make sense either - don't get dismissive because I am using examples that sound trivial.)
Or to put it the way Tarski once said it, it's like Mormons believe lawnmowers existed before there were lawns that needed mowing.
Other Christians who believe God is a spirit - not of physical human form but a mysterious holy Trinity - can get away with saying God used evolution to create humans. But Mormons are stuck with some crazy ass idea that Joseph Smith cooked up about God being an exalted primate, and now they are stuck with it.
Wouldn't the response in Mormon theology be that God is not omnipotent in the classic sense but that he is held to eternal natural laws? In this case he only organized this earth and its development (evolution) proceeded along these laws?
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
Joseph Smith was stoned when he gave that sermon, wasn't he? Because the idea that lawnmowers have been around for all eternity would sound very deep and insightful to someone who was really, really high.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
The Dude wrote:Mormons can never, ever reconcile LDS doctrine with evolution until they jettison the core belief that God has a human form, and that we have a human form because of God.
We have a human form, with all our specific quirks and flaws, because of evolution - because we evolved to survive on THIS planet and ONLY this planet. We have co-evolved with the plants and animals around us. We continue to evolve.
To take a small but illustrative example, most people of Western European descent have a mutation that lets us keep digesting lactose as adults when the ancestral condition was to lose that ability. This mutation has spread among Europeans because we started keeping cows and using dairy as an important food source, so early Europeans with the mutation out-competed tribes and individuals who didn't have it. In early Africa an independent dairy culture developed and Africans have a different mutation (at the DNA level) that lets them digest lactose into adulthood. So I ask the Mormon prophet: can God's human body digest milk, and does he have the African or the European mutation? Where did he get it? Or does God have more Asian-like (or Lamanite-like) DNA - the ancestral kind that "Adam and Eve" had - so God gets cramps and diarrhea when he eats a pizza with extra cheese?
It works the same for every part of our body. Our anus is right next to our sex organs because we evolved that way, not because it is and always has been a celestial configuration (or useful for exotic sex acts in the eternities). We have boogers and ear wax and body odor because they are advantageous or a byproduct of something that was advantageous or used to be advantageous. None of this makes any sense from a celestial perspective. (The big things don't make sense either - don't get dismissive because I am using examples that sound trivial.)
Or to put it the way Tarski once said it, it's like Mormons believe lawnmowers existed before there were lawns that needed mowing.
Other Christians who believe God is a spirit - not of physical human form but a mysterious holy Trinity - can get away with saying God used evolution to create humans. But Mormons are stuck with some crazy ass idea that Joseph Smith cooked up about God being an exalted primate, and now they are stuck with it.
+1 except I'd like to add that there are Christians who believe God is Spirit and who reject the doctrine of the trinity.
Try to listen to the podcast and tell me what you think.
I'll listen to it and get back with you.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen
It might not make any difference to you Stak, but the Agent S data dump contained a lot of information on the LDS Church's initial efforts to process evolution. I can easily get these documents to you via drop box, but I suspect they would only be of interest if you expanded your essay in a historical/Mormon studies direction. Which might be quite interesting.
Either way, plz let me see your paper when its finished.
From the Ernest L. Wilkinson Diaries: "ELW dreams he's spattered w/ grease. Hundreds steal his greasy pants."
Sethbag wrote:I'll listen to it and get back with you.
Good luck. 5 minutes of Dan W. and I need to be talked down.
I listened for about a half hour in the garage while working on my latest guitar amp project, and then had to stop to go watch a movie with my wife. I'll finish it up tomorrow. So far I've heard a lot of interesting historical stuff, but nothing yet has really dealt with the problem of existing church doctrine that conflicts with how evolution occurs, eg: death before the Fall. I will return and report tomorrow the rest of the story.
Mormonism ceased being a compelling topic for me when I finally came to terms with its transformation from a personality cult into a combination of a real estate company, a SuperPac, and Westboro Baptist Church. - Kishkumen