Let's see where we can get with this

[_stemelbow]

Wow.

That was really... Bizarre.

What do you think of Martin Luther as a critic, buddy?

VRC

I don't. I thought your initial question was bizarre so I responded in the same vain.

[_stemelbow]

Can you provide a quote like I did?

I did. You are saying LDS posters are the problem all because of what you perceive as hypocrisy in my post. Your perception of seeking out hypocrisy in my post was the problem. You read it into my post.

I'm not here to defend my faith, but I am here to discuss and at times to defend the claims of the Church. There is a difference there, but I fear you don't see it. Let me know.

The critics are here to prove my faith wrong, at least that's what it seems to me.

[_stemelbow]

Those of us that are ex-TBMs have been on both sides of the TBM-non-believer divide. We know the believing perspective as well now as the more enlightened non-believing perspective. Those who are life-long TBMs only see one perspective, because they've only experienced one perspective.

You wish you saw my perspective. I think it obvious you don't. Perhaps part of the problem is you are presuming you know my perspective when you don't.

By the way, as far as burdens of proof go, you must first prove the proposition that is not self-evident to your jury before the burden shifts to disprove it. Mormonism is neither self-evident, nor has it been proven.

I agree that the burden is upon Mormonism to prove itself. But since the proof from the Mormon position is in faith and faith is only viewable from an individual perspective there is no proving it. Thus, we're left with the other propisition--that its prove false. If the claim is its proven false, then the claim must be supported.

Also, faith is not evidence. By definition, faith is a belief in the absence of evidence.

I can agree that the general dictionary definition of faith suggests faith is not evidence, but that does not discount that the concept of faiith is evidence to believers. In other words believers use the word faith to mean something other than nonbelievers. This here highlights the problem of you not being able/willing to see the other side.

[_Drifting]

Can you provide a quote like I did?

I did. You are saying LDS posters are the problem all because of what you perceive as hypocrisy in my post. Your perception of seeking out hypocrisy in my post was the problem. You read it into my post.

I'm not here to defend my faith, but I am here to discuss and at times to defend the claims of the Church. There is a difference there, but I fear you don't see it. Let me know.

The critics are here to prove my faith wrong, at least that's what it seems to me.

Why are you putting words in my mouth?
I didn't do that to you.
All I did was show an example from your original post of one of the barriers, which is hypocrisy from LDS posters.

I think your post back to me explicitly shows some other barriers:
- Victim/persecution complex
- Projecting onto others what you want them to have said
- Hostility
- Being self absorbed (the critics are not here to prove your faith wrong, they are here to critique the truth claims of the Church against actual facts), it really isn't all about you!

[_quark]

Stemelbow,

I have found through personal experience that desire alone provides a vast amount of validation to one's belief system. Wanting something to be true can really cause that seed to grow. You will undoubtedly feel swelling motions in your breast.

[Guest]

Those of us that are ex-TBMs have been on both sides of the TBM-non-believer divide. We know the believing perspective as well now as the more enlightened non-believing perspective. Those who are life-long TBMs only see one perspective, because they've only experienced one perspective.

You wish you saw my perspective. I think it obvious you don't. Perhaps part of the problem is you are presuming you know my perspective when you don't.

Where you are now, I've been there, done that. Eventually realized the folly. Moved on.

By the way, as far as burdens of proof go, you must first prove the proposition that is not self-evident to your jury before the burden shifts to disprove it. Mormonism is neither self-evident, nor has it been proven.

I agree that the burden is upon Mormonism to prove itself. But since the proof from the Mormon position is in faith and faith is only viewable from an individual perspective there is no proving it. Thus, we're left with the other propisition--that its prove false. If the claim is its proven false, then the claim must be supported.

If it is individual perspective, then what do you have to say to others that can be of any value to them since you cannot demonstrate your position? It's individual perspective, right? By contrast, what a secularist has to say to others is backed by demonstrable facts, data and logic.

Also, faith is not evidence. By definition, faith is a belief in the absence of evidence.

I can agree that the general dictionary definition of faith suggests faith is not evidence, but that does not discount that the concept of faiith is evidence to believers. In other words believers use the word faith to mean something other than nonbelievers. This here highlights the problem of you not being able/willing to see the other side.

Remember, I've been there, done that. I said the same things you are saying. Repeating it did not make it true. Hoping it did not make it true. Hoping and repeating the mantra did help to reinforce the self-delusion. But I did not want to be deluded, and so I stopped.

ETA: Hey, stem, you did your mission in the Show Me State. As those Missourians would say, Show Me.

[_floatingboy]

hey stem

do you think that there has been a shift away from the sort of thinking amongst Mormons as illustrated by the following well-known orson pratt quote?

"…convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God and we will be forever grateful for the information.”

[_Some Schmo]

You wish you saw my perspective. I think it obvious you don't. Perhaps part of the problem is you are presuming you know my perspective when you don't.

If it weren't for all the crap that Simon has written since he's been here, this comment might win the award for the single most hypocritical statement ever uttered on this board.

[_RockSlider]

Maybe if your faith was in God, Jesus Christ or at least the Restored Gospel things might go better for you.
But your faith seems to be in the Church. It's not really your fault, you've been programmed that way.

[_sock puppet]

Maybe if your faith was in God, Jesus Christ or at least the Restored Gospel things might go better for you.
But your faith seems to be in the Church. It's not really your fault, you've been programmed that way.

I think stem has just been entombed by a rock slide.