Let's see where we can get with this

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

reuigen verrater wrote:Missed my point entirely, but managed to prove it through your own inability to formulate a coherent response that was relevant. I think that sentence of yours pretty much addresses why you have a problem having a discussion. You can't put trust in others claims, yet you expect us to put trust in yours. Ridiculous. Utterly one sided. You can't have it one way and expect to have any substantive discussion.


I havne't asked anyone to trust my claims. I have asked you to do so?
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _sock puppet »

stemelbow wrote:Why would a church’s existence be superfluous dependent upon my or someone else’s reason as to why we trust it? The reason I trust it is the reason for my faith, SP.
You need a fallible institution of men in order to have faith in god? Please explain.
stemelbow wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Since all are individual claims, then we're left to evaluate those claims by asking the individual who holds them as beliefs (a) what specifically and in detail was the experience leading to your holding the beliefs, (b) why do you interpret them in the way leading you to those beliefs rather than alternative explanations, and (c) how do you deal with the probabilities posed by contra evidence, historically or scientifically.
Yep. I agree. But as it is, I have yet to see many parameters put up on these discussions. For instance to say Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet because he was sealed to many women isn’t defining parameters. Is that to say a prophet could not have been sealed to many women? Beats me, but it seems to be quite evident to critics.
Why would a prophet lie and deny that he has many 'wives'? See 5/26/1844 sermon of JSJr aboard the Maid of Iowa, History of the Church, Vol. 6. Is that how the god and author of all truth would want his representative on earth, his mouthpiece, to roll?
stemelbow wrote:
sock puppet wrote:It's more about trying to get people to take a close look at why they believe the religious things they do that make them act and behave the way they do in response to those beliefs. If they can drill down to the nubbin and explain the basis for their faith, they're better equipped to evaluate and assess instructions from the COB, Vatican, or wherever. If self-examination gets more people on the side of disbelieving (which seems to be the results of serious self-examination of faith beliefs), then so be it.


Hmm…one of these days I’ll probably end up questioning whether your stated objective here fits in with what you’re behavior indicates. I ain’t doing that here though.

Why not?
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

sock puppet wrote:You need a fallible institution of men in order to have faith in god? Please explain.


I never indicated that I need a falliable institution of men in order to have faith in God. Indeed I believe anyone can have faith in God without a fallible institution of men at all.
stemelbow wrote:Why would a prophet lie and deny that he has many 'wives'? See 5/26/1844 sermon of JSJr aboard the Maid of Iowa, History of the Church, Vol. 6. Is that how the god and author of all truth would want his representative on earth, his mouthpiece, to roll?

I’m not God. How would you or I know what He’s thinking? Its weird to me that you would assume you know what to expect from Him.

stemelbow wrote:Why not?


That was intended to come off as more of a joke.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Darth J »

stemelbow wrote:
Darth J wrote:That is not an assumption, either. That is a conclusion after reading the Doctrine and Covenants and then looking at what Joseph Smith did.


We'll just call it a false conclusion then. I mean the D&C doesn't say Joseph Smith couldn't be a prophet because he was sealed to more than one woman.


And I did not say that, either. Would you say that your mischaracterization of the issue is deliberate, or are you really that obtuse?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14539&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
_Darth J
_Emeritus
Posts: 13392
Joined: Thu May 13, 2010 12:16 am

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Darth J »

stemelbow wrote:
Darth J wrote:Stemelbow:

Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints make any claims in its teachings regarding events that happened in the objective, physical world that can be falsified?

___Yes

___No


You betcha. And to boot, the church has made claims that have been falsified.


Let's start with a few more concrete examples:

Does the Book of Mormon purport to be the history of a vast, technologically and socially advanced Hebrew civilization in the pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere?

___Yes

___No

Does the LDS Church teach that the Book of Mormon is in fact what it purports to be?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of determining whether ancient civilizations actually existed?

___Yes

___No

Does the LDS Church claim that the human race began approximately 6,000 years ago, when the only two homo sapiens who existed on this Earth entered mortality in present-day Missouri?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins of homo sapiens?

___Yes

___No


Does the LDS Church claim that every form of life on this planet became subject to physical death only approximately 6,000 years ago, when the only two homo sapiens who existed on this Earth entered mortality in present-day Missouri?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins of species and the development of life on this planet?

___Yes

___No

Does the Book of Mormon teach that the tower of Babel story from the Bible is actual history, and that this is the origin of different languages in the world?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins and development of languages?

___Yes

___No

Does the Book of Abraham contain vignettes taken from ancient Egyptian papyri and a purported translation of what is written and depicted on those vignettes?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of ancient Egyptian writings?

___Yes

___No
_Doctor CamNC4Me
_Emeritus
Posts: 21663
Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 11:02 am

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Jesus, DarthJ. You must hate all Men.

God you're such an asshole.
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

Darth J wrote:And I did not say that, either. Would you say that your mischaracterization of the issue is deliberate, or are you really that obtuse?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14539&st=0&sk=t&sd=a


I would say you didn't give me much to go on at all. Now that you link this post of yours I see what you're saying now. Previously it came off as an assumption to me. I personally don't care if you think I'm deliberately doing something or being obtuse. I simply didn't see much of anything here but an assertion.

Anyway, lets look at the verses you use to support your notion that a man cannot be a prophet if...

And again, as pertaining to the law of the priesthood—if any man espouse a virgin, and desire to espouse another, and the first give her consent, and if he espouse the second, and they are virgins, and have vowed to no other man, then is he justified; he cannot commit adultery for they are given unto him; for he cannot commit adultery with that that belongeth unto him and to no one else.

62 And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified.

63 But if one or either of the ten virgins, after she is espoused, shall be with another man, she has committed adultery, and shall be destroyed; for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.


You say the following: “D&C 132 gives specific parameters for when plural marriage is acceptable to the Lord:

*The consent of the previous wife must be sought
*The plural wives must be virgins
*The plural wives must be vowed to no one else
*A man's plural wives "are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth"

You continue:

“In practicing plural marriage, Joseph Smith:

*Frequently did not seek Emma's consent/hid his plural marriages from Emma
*On January 17, 1842, married Mary Elizabeth Rollins, who was several months pregnant (obviously not a virgin)
*Entered polyandrous marriages with the wives of other men
*Had no known children with his plural wives”

Yes in so doing you seem to have missed that the injunction does not pertain to Joseph Smith:
“Let no one, therefore, set on my servant Joseph; for I will justify him; for he shall do the sacrifice which I require at his hands for his transgressions, saith the Lord your God.”

Either Joseph Smith was justified whether he transgressed here or not or he was not. The LORD says he was justified by doing the sacrifice which He required for his transgressions. If you take the outline of your interpretation as infallible as you have done, then you must also take the justification offered by the LORD as infallible. No one else is justified.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_stemelbow
_Emeritus
Posts: 5872
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 8:40 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _stemelbow »

Darth J wrote:Let's start with a few more concrete examples:

Does the Book of Mormon purport to be the history of a vast, technologically and socially advanced Hebrew civilization in the pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere?


No.

Does the LDS Church teach that the Book of Mormon is in fact what it purports to be?

Yes.
Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of determining whether ancient civilizations actually existed?

Sure.

Does the LDS Church claim that the human race began approximately 6,000 years ago, when the only two homo sapiens who existed on this Earth entered mortality in present-day Missouri?


yes

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins of homo sapiens?


Yes.

Does the LDS Church claim that every form of life on this planet became subject to physical death only approximately 6,000 years ago, when the only two homo sapiens who existed on this Earth entered mortality in present-day Missouri?

yes

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins of species and the development of life on this planet?

Yes.
Does the Book of Mormon teach that the tower of Babel story from the Bible is actual history, and that this is the origin of different languages in the world?

It can be interpreted that way. But it can also be seen differently.

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins and development of languages?

yes
Does the Book of Abraham contain vignettes taken from ancient Egyptian papyri and a purported translation of what is written and depicted on those vignettes?


Sure.
Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of ancient Egyptian writings?


Yes.
Love ya tons,
Stem


I ain't nuttin'. don't get all worked up on account of me.
_schreech
_Emeritus
Posts: 2470
Joined: Tue May 25, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _schreech »

Darth J wrote:Let's start with a few more concrete examples:

Does the Book of Mormon purport to be the history of a vast, technologically and socially advanced Hebrew civilization in the pre-Columbian Western Hemisphere?

___Yes

___No

Does the LDS Church teach that the Book of Mormon is in fact what it purports to be?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of determining whether ancient civilizations actually existed?

___Yes

___No

Does the LDS Church claim that the human race began approximately 6,000 years ago, when the only two homo sapiens who existed on this Earth entered mortality in present-day Missouri?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins of homo sapiens?

___Yes

___No


Does the LDS Church claim that every form of life on this planet became subject to physical death only approximately 6,000 years ago, when the only two homo sapiens who existed on this Earth entered mortality in present-day Missouri?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins of species and the development of life on this planet?

___Yes

___No

Does the Book of Mormon teach that the tower of Babel story from the Bible is actual history, and that this is the origin of different languages in the world?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of the origins and development of languages?

___Yes

___No

Does the Book of Abraham contain vignettes taken from ancient Egyptian papyri and a purported translation of what is written and depicted on those vignettes?

___Yes

___No

Are there any sciences or academic disciplines dedicated to the study of ancient Egyptian writings?

___Yes

___No


LOL - thanks darth:

Image


what i think of everytime the stem creates a thread:

Image

Oh, and reuigen verrater...welcome :)
"your reasoning that children should be experimented upon to justify a political agenda..is tantamount to the Nazi justification for experimenting on human beings."-SUBgenius on gay parents
"I've stated over and over again on this forum and fully accept that I'm a bigot..." - ldsfaqs
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Let's see where we can get with this

Post by _sock puppet »

stemelbow wrote:
sock puppet wrote:You need a fallible institution of men in order to have faith in god? Please explain.


I never indicated that I need a falliable institution of men in order to have faith in God. Indeed I believe anyone can have faith in God without a fallible institution of men at all.
Why need any institution, fallible or not?
sock puppet wrote:Why would a prophet lie and deny that he has many 'wives'? See 5/26/1844 sermon of JSJr aboard the Maid of Iowa, History of the Church, Vol. 6. Is that how the god and author of all truth would want his representative on earth, his mouthpiece, to roll?

stemelbow wrote:I’m not God.
Thanks for disabusing me of that notion.
stemelbow wrote:How would you or I know what He’s thinking? Its weird to me that you would assume you know what to expect from Him.

The Bible says, by their fruits ye shall know them. God is the author of all truth, and Satan the father of all lies. What fruit was JSJr bearing on 5/26/1844? Was JSJr's denial fathered by Satan?
Post Reply