Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
_Buffalo
_Emeritus
Posts: 12064
Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Buffalo »

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/opini ... oom&st=cse

I'm glad it's not just us depraved and soulless critics who have noticed this.

However, should Mr. Romney be elected president, Smith’s dream of a Mormon Kingdom of God in America would not be fulfilled, since the 21st-century Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has little resemblance to its 19th-century precursor. The current head of the Mormon Church, Thomas S. Monson, known to his followers as “prophet, seer and revelator,” is indistinguishable from the secular plutocratic oligarchs who exercise power in our supposed democracy.


The Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed has little enough in common with the visions of Joseph Smith. The oligarchs of Salt Lake City, who sponsor Mr. Romney, betray what ought to have been their own religious heritage. Though I read Christopher Hitchens with pleasure, his characterization of Joseph Smith as “a fraud and conjuror” is inadequate. A superb trickster and protean personality, Smith was a religious genius, uniquely able to craft a story capable of turning a self-invented faith into a people now as numerous as the Jews, in America and abroad. According to the church, about six million American citizens are Mormons, and there are more than eight million converts in Asia, Africa and elsewhere.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Fence Sitter »

It's like he had BC, Droopy and Consig in mind when he wrote the article.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Phaedrus Ut
_Emeritus
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:55 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Phaedrus Ut »

And people were questioning my opinion of Bloom when I called him America's greatest literary critic? Clearly the man knows of what he speaks.


Phaedrus
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _sock puppet »

Fence Sitter wrote:It's like he had BC, Droopy and Consig in mind when he wrote the article.

BC and Droopy, I understand. Consig?
_Rollo Tomasi
_Emeritus
Posts: 4085
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:27 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Rollo Tomasi »

Buffalo wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/opinion/sunday/will-this-election-be-the-mormon-breakthrough.html?_r=2&scp=2&sq=Harold%20bloom&st=cse

I'm glad it's not just us depraved and soulless critics who have noticed this.

....


I found another insightful quote in the article:

There are other secrets also, not tellable by the Mormon Church to those it calls “Gentiles,” oddly including Jews. That aspects of the religion of a devout president of the United States should be concealed from all but 2 percent of us may be a legitimate question that merits pondering. When I wandered about the South and Southwest from 1989 to 1991, researching American religion, I was heartened by the warmth that greeted me in Pentecostal and Baptist churches, some of them independent indeed. But Gentiles are not allowed in Mormon temples.

I imagine that if Mitt becomes the Republican nominee, the temple ceremonies will become a bigger issue. And I wonder if someone will ask Mitt if he and his wife have received the ultimate temple ordinance (that only very few members will ever receive in this life): the Second Anointing. And if asked, whether Mitt will answer.
"Moving beyond apologist persuasion, LDS polemicists furiously (and often fraudulently) attack any non-traditional view of Mormonism. They don't mince words -- they mince the truth."

-- Mike Quinn, writing of the FARMSboys, in "Early Mormonism and the Magic World View," p. x (Rev. ed. 1998)
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _sock puppet »

Rollo Tomasi wrote:
Buffalo wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/opinion/sunday/will-this-election-be-the-mormon-breakthrough.html?_r=2&scp=2&sq=Harold%20bloom&st=cse

I'm glad it's not just us depraved and soulless critics who have noticed this.

....


I found another insightful quote in the article:

There are other secrets also, not tellable by the Mormon Church to those it calls “Gentiles,” oddly including Jews. That aspects of the religion of a devout president of the United States should be concealed from all but 2 percent of us may be a legitimate question that merits pondering. When I wandered about the South and Southwest from 1989 to 1991, researching American religion, I was heartened by the warmth that greeted me in Pentecostal and Baptist churches, some of them independent indeed. But Gentiles are not allowed in Mormon temples.

I imagine that if Mitt becomes the Republican nominee, the temple ceremonies will become a bigger issue. And I wonder if someone will ask Mitt if he and his wife have received the ultimate temple ordinance (that only very few members will ever receive in this life): the Second Anointing. And if asked, whether Mitt will answer.

It won't sell well outside of the intermountain west for Mitt to say it is to sacred to talk about. He'll have to figure out something else, like giving the URL link to an online transcript of what goes on.

Just wait until the press gets a hold of the fact that until about 1930, the temple ceremony made participants take a vow against the U.S. government. That ought to be fun! "Mitt, did your grandfather and grandmother take that vow? What did they tell you about your civic responsibilities?"
_Fence Sitter
_Emeritus
Posts: 8862
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 3:49 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Fence Sitter »

sock puppet wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:It's like he had BC, Droopy and Consig in mind when he wrote the article.

BC and Droopy, I understand. Consig?


. . .since the 21st-century Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has little resemblance to its 19th-century precursor. The current head of the Mormon Church, Thomas S. Monson, known to his followers as “prophet, seer and revelator,” is indistinguishable from the secular plutocratic oligarchs who exercise power in our supposed democracy. The Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed has little enough in common with the visions of Joseph Smith


While reading this and other parts of the article when Bloom contrasts the originality of the early church with the current correlated cooperate behemoth I could not help but think of all those post by Consig in which he laments the loss of the old church.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_Yahoo Bot
_Emeritus
Posts: 3219
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:37 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Yahoo Bot »

sock puppet wrote:Just wait until the press gets a hold of the fact that until about 1930, the temple ceremony made participants take a vow against the U.S. government. That ought to be fun! "Mitt, did your grandfather and grandmother take that vow? What did they tell you about your civic responsibilities?"


That is false.

Moreover, the exact contents of the "vow" were thoroughly dissected by the press, as well as by Senate lawyers, during the Reed Smoot hearings.
_Corpsegrinder
_Emeritus
Posts: 615
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:33 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _Corpsegrinder »

"You and each of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the third and fourth generation."

Would this be the text of the oath in question?
_sock puppet
_Emeritus
Posts: 17063
Joined: Fri Jul 23, 2010 2:52 pm

Re: Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

Post by _sock puppet »

Yahoo Bot wrote:
sock puppet wrote:Just wait until the press gets a hold of the fact that until about 1930, the temple ceremony made participants take a vow against the U.S. government. That ought to be fun! "Mitt, did your grandfather and grandmother take that vow? What did they tell you about your civic responsibilities?"


That is false.

Moreover, the exact contents of the "vow" were thoroughly dissected by the press, as well as by Senate lawyers, during the Reed Smoot hearings.

When Joseph Smith was killed on June 27, 1844, his assassins created the circumstances for what has become known as the "Oath of Vengeance." A corollary to the doctrine of blood atonement, the oath of vengeance was created on the first anniversary of Smith's death as a formal prayer for God's vengeance upon those who shed the blood of the prophet's. Six months later this oath of vengeance became a part of the Mormon temple endowment ceremony.(1) The specific oath stated the following:

" You and each of you do solemnly promise and vow that you will pray and never cease to pray and never cease to importune High Heaven to avenge the blood of the prophets on this nation and that you will teach this to your children and your children's children until the third and fourth generation."(2)

This oath of vengeance was used several times in 1845 as justification for killing people who had been involved in the murders of Joseph and Hyrum Smith.(3)

When the doctrines of blood atonement and oath of vengeance were dropped as part of church doctrine, fundamentalists saw this as yet another instance of the church caving in to political pressure. They still believe firmly in these doctrines. Kraut remarks that "Today, the doctrine of blood atonement is never taught and rarely mentioned. The idea of capital punishment has almost become eradicated by communists, psychologists, psychiatrists, and liberal educators. The Oath of Vengeance is no longer a part of the temple ceremony."(4)

(1)D. Michael Quinn, The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1994), 179.

(2)Ogden Kraut, 95 Theses (Dugway, Utah: By the author, Box 222, n.d.), 79.

(3)Quinn, 1994, 180-181.

(4)Kraut, 78-79.
Post Reply