Harold Bloom on "Salt Lake City empire of corporate greed"

[_Yahoo Bot]

As was explained by many during the Smoot hearings this was not an oath to overthrow the country. It would seem that the full Senate agreed by refusing to unseat Smoot even though he had taken this oath.

I take it you dispute my assertion that this oath already had much play in the press.

[_Doctor Scratch]

As was explained by many during the Smoot hearings this was not an oath to overthrow the country.

I take it you dispute my assertion that this oath already had much play in the press.

"Much play" in the press of the early 20th century is a very different thing compared to "much play" in the early 21st century press. I don't know why you think that the two situations are even remotely comparable.

[_Corpsegrinder]

As was explained by many during the Smoot hearings this was not an oath to overthrow the country.

Right, because that would've been an oath of rebellion, which is entirely different from an oath of vengeance. It's like comparing apples and oranges here. How anybody could confuse an oath of vengeance with an oath of rebellion is beyond me. I mean, it's not like anybody ever took that blood atonement stuff seriously.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Moreover, the exact contents of the "vow" were thoroughly dissected by the press, as well as by Senate lawyers, during the Reed Smoot hearings.

I remember reading the transcript from these hearings, in which Reed Smoot essentially denied having ever personally participating in the so-called "oath/prayer of vengeance" when he took out his endowments. In fact, he testified that he could not remember such an oath/vow/prayer as part of the endowment ceremony (and this from a sitting apostle at the time!!!). Personally, I think he was simply lying and knew very well that it was part of the ceremony at that time.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

As was explained by many during the Smoot hearings this was not an oath to overthrow the country. It would seem that the full Senate agreed by refusing to unseat Smoot even though he had taken this oath.

But Smoot lied to the Senate committee about whether he took it -- claiming he didn't recall ever taking it, and, incredibly, also claiming that he (an apostle!) did not remember such an oath/prayer being a part of the endowment ceremony.

[_harmony]

I wonder if anyone in the COB still likes Harold Bloom? I mean, essentially he calls the Brethren greedy corporate *cough* men. I bet Harold figured out that the books are closed, too. Which, of course, puts him beyond the pale.

[_Buffalo]

As was explained by many during the Smoot hearings this was not an oath to overthrow the country. It would seem that the full Senate agreed by refusing to unseat Smoot even though he had taken this oath.

But Smoot lied to the Senate committee about whether he took it -- claiming he didn't recall ever taking it, and, incredibly, also claiming that he (an apostle!) did not remember such an oath/prayer being a part of the endowment ceremony.

Yes, but at least he lied under his own name. Unlike Joseph Smith


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _Covenants

Code names for people

Ahashdah: Newel K. Whitney
Alam: Edward Partridge
Baneemy: originally Lyman Wight, reinterpreted by Orson Pratt as "mine elders" in 1876, perhaps corrupt Hebrew for “my sons”; also claimed as a title by Charles B. Thompson
Baurak Ale: Joseph Smith, Jr.. This is a very clear Hebrew for barakh 'el (ברך אל) “blessed [of] El,” i.e., God.
Enoch: Joseph Smith, Jr.
Gazelam: Joseph Smith, Jr. (cf. Gazelem)
Horah: John Whitmer
Mahalaleel: A. Sidney Gilbert
Mehemson: Martin Harris
Olihah: Oliver Cowdery (see -ihah)
Pelagoram: Sidney Rigdon
Shalemanasseh: William Wines Phelps (cf. Shalmaneser, Manasseh)
Shederlaomach: Frederick G. Williams (cf. Chedorlaomer, Shedolamak)
Zombre: John Johnson

[_Yahoo Bot]

As was explained by many during the Smoot hearings this was not an oath to overthrow the country. It would seem that the full Senate agreed by refusing to unseat Smoot even though he had taken this oath.

But Smoot lied to the Senate committee about whether he took it -- claiming he didn't recall ever taking it, and, incredibly, also claiming that he (an apostle!) did not remember such an oath/prayer being a part of the endowment ceremony.

Calling people liars, huh? On what basis -- simply because you don't agree with them?

In those days, apostles, like everybody else, went through the temple endowment ceremony once in their lives, as Smoot explained. Unless an apostle was also an officiator, and some were, and as Smoot explained, there is little chance a normal person would remember the details. Smoot didn't. The Senate committee relied upon the testimony of several others to reconstruct the oath and even they were not in agreement.

Going through the temple for the deceased on a regular basis for the endowment did not begin until many years later.

And, I might add, the Senate seems to have accepted the witnesses' explanation as to the meaning of the oath, as they did not vote to unseat Smoot. As I recall the testimony of the various witnesses, it was that they expected that God would do the work and that members, individually, would not be called upon to avenge the blood of the prophet. That doctrine was evident in hymns in the immediate past hymnal.

But, in any event, it is ludicrous for Mr. Sock Puppet to rub his hands in anticipation of the press getting their hands on the oath when, in fact, the press spent two years with that oath vis a vis Smoot and it came to nothing. Does he not know that?

[_Darth J]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _Covenants

Code names for people

Ahashdah: Newel K. Whitney
Alam: Edward Partridge
Baneemy: originally Lyman Wight, reinterpreted by Orson Pratt as "mine elders" in 1876, perhaps corrupt Hebrew for “my sons”; also claimed as a title by Charles B. Thompson
Baurak Ale: Joseph Smith, Jr.. This is a very clear Hebrew for barakh 'el (ברך אל) “blessed [of] El,” i.e., God.
Enoch: Joseph Smith, Jr.
Gazelam: Joseph Smith, Jr. (cf. Gazelem)
Horah: John Whitmer
Mahalaleel: A. Sidney Gilbert
Mehemson: Martin Harris
Olihah: Oliver Cowdery (see -ihah)
Pelagoram: Sidney Rigdon
Shalemanasseh: William Wines Phelps (cf. Shalmaneser, Manasseh)
Shederlaomach: Frederick G. Williams (cf. Chedorlaomer, Shedolamak)
Zombre: John Johnson

Looks like a bunch of anonymous cowards to me.

[_MCB]

As I recall the testimony of the various witnesses, it was that they expected that God would do the work and that members, individually, would not be called upon to avenge the blood of the prophet.

Even then, they become angry when they discover that their god did not "avenge the blood of the prophet." It amounts to the same thing.