Let's see where we can get with this

[_Morley]

East-Asia? We have always been at war with East-Asia!

huh?

Nineteen Eighty-Four.

[_LDSToronto]

Stem, way back on page 1 of this thread, brade asked you a question, perhaps the only sane attempt to engage you, and you missed it:

What is it for [the church] to be true at least for you? Can it be true for you and false for me?

This is an important question. Please answer it.

H.

[_emilysmith]

I was always under the impression that the burden of proof rests on people making ridiculous claims. I think most people in the world dismiss Mormonism out of hand and feel little need to go out and prove it false.

Just the same way not many people bother to prove that the sun does not, in fact, go around the earth. Imagine how foolish you would be arguing with someone who actually believed that.

I think the premise of the OP is seriously flawed. The state of the boards are a result of the apologists having made no progress whatsoever in demonstrating the validity of their faith beyond it is is so because they feel that way. In the meantime, the critics are getting better and better and finding every piece of minutiae that shows the contradictions in the Mormon culture.

The battle is lost. Everything that's left is just the death rattle. Nearly every missionary visit in the developed world now, at best, results in a visit to Google that quickly shatters any illusions about joining the Church.

[_Drifting]

I was always under the impression that the burden of proof rests on people making ridiculous claims. I think most people in the world dismiss Mormonism out of hand and feel little need to go out and prove it false.

Just the same way not many people bother to prove that the sun does not, in fact, go around the earth. Imagine how foolish you would be arguing with someone who actually believed that.

I think the premise of the OP is seriously flawed. The state of the boards are a result of the apologists having made no progress whatsoever in demonstrating the validity of their faith beyond it is is so because they feel that way. In the meantime, the critics are getting better and better and finding every piece of minutiae that shows the contradictions in the Mormon culture.

The battle is lost. Everything that's left is just the death rattle. Nearly every missionary visit in the developed world now, at best, results in a visit to Google that quickly shatters any illusions about joining the Church.

In fact most people do dismiss Mormonism out of hand.
In fact most baptised members of the Mormon Church dismiss it out of hand, to the point of non attendance.
In fact most baptised active members of the Mormon Church are so embarrassed about its beliefs that they steadfastly refuse the almost weekly exhortation to preach it it friends and neighbours and colleagues.
In fact very few baptised active members of the Mormon Church believe it enough to put their money where their faith is.

Satan is winning because Christ created a Church whose claims are ridiculously easy to dismiss out of hand.

[_stemelbow]

Stem, way back on page 1 of this thread, brade asked you a question, perhaps the only sane attempt to engage you, and you missed it:

What is it for [the church] to be true at least for you? Can it be true for you and false for me?

This is an important question. Please answer it.

H.

I answered it on page 2.

[_stemelbow]

I was always under the impression that the burden of proof rests on people making ridiculous claims. I think most people in the world dismiss Mormonism out of hand and feel little need to go out and prove it false.

I can agree with this.

Just the same way not many people bother to prove that the sun does not, in fact, go around the earth. Imagine how foolish you would be arguing with someone who actually believed that.

I hear ya.

I think the premise of the OP is seriously flawed. The state of the boards are a result of the apologists having made no progress whatsoever in demonstrating the validity of their faith beyond it is is so because they feel that way. In the meantime, the critics are getting better and better and finding every piece of minutiae that shows the contradictions in the Mormon culture.

I think you highlight my point, here. Showing contradictions in Mormon culture is just that--showing contradictions in Mormon culture. It is not demonstrating the Church is false, however.

The battle is lost. Everything that's left is just the death rattle. Nearly every missionary visit in the developed world now, at best, results in a visit to Google that quickly shatters any illusions about joining the Church.

We've come to a completely halt in growth. Not a soul will ever be converted again. The critic wins. Whatever. That's the type of attitude and position that's the problem, I think. None of that is true at all.

[_Doctor Scratch]

Holy smokes! What a colossal coup de grace Darth J has dealt to stemelbow! How embarrassing for him! Poor stem has been revealed here as being utterly incompetent in debate.

Stem: you should just bow down before Darth's superior argumentation skills in order to save what little face you've got left.

[Guest]

I think you highlight my point, here. Showing contradictions in Mormon culture is just that--showing contradictions in Mormon culture. It is not demonstrating the Church is false, however.

I don't think she means culture in the same way might be. I think she includes doctrine and truth claims as well, and in fact it is probably the primary part of Mormon culture that she is talking about. So yes it is demonstrating the the church is not true.

We've come to a completely halt in growth. Not a soul will ever be converted again. The critic wins. Whatever. That's the type of attitude and position that's the problem, I think. None of that is true at all.

My understanding is that converts in the developed world have significantly dropped since the early 90's, and I do think the internet and other forms of information availability play the major role. Retention has always been a problem, especially in the developed world where the church is putting in more and more efforts these days, and where most of baptisms are occuring. I don't think the church is dying anytime soon, but dropping numbers of converts(in the developed world) and increasing number of BIC leaving will probably influence the church to make changes faster then they have in the past.

[_stemelbow]

Dear ****tard:

I am comparing YOUR ARGUMENTS to autism.

That's not true at all. You are exploiting autism in your attempt to mock my reading ability or something. It was in poor taste. That's all. But that isn't really the reason why I chose to stop the back and forth. I think this conversation between the two of us serve a great example of the problem I tried to outline in the OP. I'll try to sum it up for everyone here. I"m sweet like that.

DJ entered this discussion, essentially, by asking me questions about how I view my faith. I answered them as straight up as I could.

That seemed fine. He then went on to suggest that in answering those questions I contradicted myself. I think he misread me, for I did not. he dropped it after I pointed that out.

He then resurrected an old thread of his in which he attempted to show that Joseph Smith was wrong for not following certain instructions in D&C 132. I then went ahead and pointed out if he is going to use D&C 132 as the means to prove he cannot be a prophet then we ought to set up parameters for what makes a prophet. And I pointed out in D&C 132, if he wishes to use it as the setting of parameters, has LORD saying Joseph is justified. I then argued that means any errors he might have made regarding polygamy pre-1843 were forgiven by God.

He then said, essentially, well he still did not follow the instructions of 132 after 1843.

I responded, cool. But there is no reason to think, even if true, that means he is not a prophet of God. For all people sin, even prophets. He then went on to quote other passages which have God offering condemnations for sin, while choosing to read it that if sin occurs then the priesthood is taken from the man.

I personally don't choose to read those passages so legalistically as he does. I responded by saying all people sin, so I don't see a reason to take those passages so hard-lined and legalistic.

We quibbled about that for a few pages. He keeps propounding the same thing with the same, essentially, argument. It seems he misunderstands me, so I bowed out.

To me it all made for a pretty good example of what I had in mind in the OP.

[_stemelbow]

Holy smokes! What a colossal coup de grace Darth J has dealt to stemelbow! How embarrassing for him! Poor stem has been revealed here as being utterly incompetent in debate.

Stem: you should just bow down before Darth's superior argumentation skills in order to save what little face you've got left.

I don't know if you're mocking me or DJ, Scratch. Doesn't matter. I've already shown I'm incompetent in debate around these parts. I believe you've went after me for that already. The perception is already there, dear sir.

Take care.