Theists, is MDB a hostile environment?

[_sethpayne]

Theists of all stripes, please air your grievances about the environment of this board, I’m curious about what you think about the atmosphere various non-theists here help create.

Hi Stak,

I am a theist and while I do believe, as MsJack has pointed out, that there is a lot of hostility towards theism by some vocal participants here, I feel no personal hostility whatsoever. If the conversation turns to how dumb theism is etc... I usually lose interest and stop reading.

I feel no need to defend my theism here or elsewhere as I freely admit my faith is not rational. I have, as William James would say, "the will to believe." If I'm wrong, so what? I find comfort in prayer and faith and so if nothing else, my theism serves a very pragmatic purpose.

Were I here to defend theism then I would likely feel much different. I participate here because I enjoy the personalities and frankly, I think Dr. Scratch is one hell of a satirist. For that matter, DrCam's snarky comments can be very funny and entertaining.

Seth

[_EAllusion]

Father Christmas, likewise, has multiple natures - the historical figure, the Catholic Saint, the pseudo-secular distributor of commodities.

You're confusing what is meant by "nature" in that statement. In orthodox Christian thought, Jesus was both 100% God and 100% human being without being a "man-god" or whathaveyou. I don't think this is coherent, but it isn't multiple natures in the sense of having multiple roles or different character iterations.

[_Some Schmo]

I feel no need to defend my theism here or elsewhere as I freely admit my faith is not rational. I have, as William James would say, "the will to believe." If I'm wrong, so what? I find comfort in prayer and faith and so if nothing else, my theism serves a very pragmatic purpose.

This is the most honest kind of theism there is, and the only one I can really respect. If you're up front and acknowledge the real reasons for god belief, what's not to admire? Most people who believe and try to defend it are just BSing themselves with this fantasy of sophistication.

Good on ya, man.

[_thews]

Most Christians, much less Ex-Mormons, haven't studied Christianity in depth. The reason I mention Jack and Smith is because not only have they made an actual study of the issue, they come into contact with Ex-Mormons here all the time.

You equate Christianity with being a theist... a very common mistake in these discussions. To the OP, it doesn't matter. You either have a foundation that you can rationally defend, or you do not. If you wish to claim logic is on your side by basing nothing just *happening* which created the universe and ultimately us, I'll call BS, but only because it makes sense and I can back it up. In sharp contrast, the Mormon apologists can't finish an argument, and that's because the foundation is flawed. What one regards as "hostile" is, for all intent and purposes, moot.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

“So why don’t you believe in God?”

“I just don’t see any evidence for it.”

“What are you looking for? What would it take to convince you that God was real?”

“I dunno. What would it take to convince you that the sun sets in the north?”

“The sun sets in the west.”

“I know. But what would it take to convince you that it sets in the north?”

“It doesn’t set in the north, it sets in the west.”

“So your mind is made up? There’s nothing I could say that would convince you that it sets in the north?”

“Of course not.”

“So you’re closed-minded then.”

“I’m not closed-minded! That’s just the way it is!”

“Suppose I told you a really convincing story about the sun setting in the north?”

“It wouldn’t be a true story.”

“How do you know?”

“Because the sun sets in the west.”

“What if you saw it setting in the north. Would that convince you?”

“Ok, if I saw it actually setting in the north, that would convince me. But that will never happen, because the sun sets in the west.”

“So it’s a pointless question then?”

“Pretty much.”

[_Hoops]

“So why don’t you believe in God?”

“I just don’t see any evidence for it.”

“What are you looking for? What would it take to convince you that God was real?”

“I dunno. What would it take to convince you that the sun sets in the north?”

“The sun sets in the west.”

“I know. But what would it take to convince you that it sets in the north?”

“It doesn’t set in the north, it sets in the west.”

“So your mind is made up? There’s nothing I could say that would convince you that it sets in the north?”

“Of course not.”

“So you’re closed-minded then.”

“I’m not closed-minded! That’s just the way it is!”

“Suppose I told you a really convincing story about the sun setting in the north?”

“It wouldn’t be a true story.”

“How do you know?”

“Because the sun sets in the west.”

“What if you saw it setting in the north. Would that convince you?”

“Ok, if I saw it actually setting in the north, that would convince me. But that will never happen, because the sun sets in the west.”

“So it’s a pointless question then?”

“Pretty much.”

Except you don't know the sun sets in the West. In fact, you don't know that a setting sun is a reflection of reality at all. And even if you did know, the idea of West is your own construct, so it may indeed set in the North except you are calling it the West. I'm not sure what your clever story is supposed to illustrate.

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Except you don't know the sun sets in the West. In fact, you don't know that a setting sun is a reflection of reality at all. And even if you did know, the idea of West is your own construct, so it may indeed set in the North except you are calling it the West. I'm not sure what your clever story is supposed to illustrate.

Hrm. I think you just did...

[_Chap]

Except you don't know the sun sets in the West. In fact, you don't know that a setting sun is a reflection of reality at all. And even if you did know, the idea of West is your own construct, so it may indeed set in the North except you are calling it the West. I'm not sure what your clever story is supposed to illustrate.

Hrm. I think you just did...

Yup. someone else once used that 'it all depends what you mean by reality' trick before:

λέγει αὐτῷ ὁ Πιλᾶτος· τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια;

Didn't think that went down well with Christians, but you never can tell which way they'll jump to get out of a difficulty, can you?

[_Hoops]

Perhaps I'm the only one, but I would be interested in what either/both of you have to say.

[_lostsheep]

For the atheists on this board who think that belief in God is just as clearly delusional and nonsensical as belief in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny:

Would you consider mathematical Platonism to be in the same category of nonsensical belief? If someone believes that abstract mathematical entities have some sort of existence independent of the human mind, is that person obviously delusional and unscientific in their view of the world?