psychic gold hunt

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_Drifting
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _Drifting »

brade wrote:Doesn't Dr. Peterson have a testimony of water witching? I thought I heard him say (MormonStories Podcast?) that he had an experience with a dowsing rod that leads him to believe there's something to it. Am I misremembering?


Denial Peterson has to maintain an outward belief in the possibility that dowsing has validity becaue it was something Oliver Cowdrey did. It was even referred to in the D&C - I think it has been edited to read "gift of Aaron" which is actually dowsing.
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_Joe Geisner
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _Joe Geisner »

I would be interested to know where bcspace found the reference for the Palmyra Herald. It is clear that neither bcspace nor their source understand the intent of the author who wrote this article. With a little research and the correct tools neither person would be embarrassed by their major mistake.

The author, who wrote this originally for a Vermont publication, was writing parody much like Jonathan Swift or Al Franken would write. This author tells their readers that the only "genuine mineral rod" for finding real treasure is the "Plough" to dig the soil or "turn up the glittering dust in every furrow." The author also explains that "the best time for digging money, is early in the morning, while the dew is on." In other words, the New England work ethic is the only way to gain riches, any of the ways the Smith family sought riches was a joke, a major joke.

Mormon Apologist would do well to buy Rick Grunder's "Mormon Parallels." It might help them from making these major mistakes and/or corrupting sources like bcspace did with his/her response to this OP.
_keithb
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _keithb »

Chap wrote:
keithb wrote:
Please - by 'late 1800s', do you mean 'late in the period between 1800 and 1809', or do you mean 'late in the nineteenth century'? There is a distinction there, and it is a useful one. Maybe we could keep it?

I do agree, by the way, that the 'presentism' escape route is often one of the last resorts of the defenders of the indefensible.


I think that I meant the late 19th century, although it's been so long since I read the book that I can't remember for sure. I just remember that it was on some date in 18-- format.
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_Chap
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _Chap »

Joe Geisner wrote:I would be interested to know where bcspace found the reference for the Palmyra Herald. It is clear that neither bcspace nor their source understand the intent of the author who wrote this article. With a little research and the correct tools neither person would be embarrassed by their major mistake.

The author, who wrote this originally for a Vermont publication, was writing parody much like Jonathan Swift or Al Franken would write. This author tells their readers that the only "genuine mineral rod" for finding real treasure is the "Plough" to dig the soil or "turn up the glittering dust in every furrow." The author also explains that "the best time for digging money, is early in the morning, while the dew is on." In other words, the New England work ethic is the only way to gain riches, any of the ways the Smith family sought riches was a joke, a major joke.

Mormon Apologist would do well to buy Rick Grunder's "Mormon Parallels." It might help them from making these major mistakes and/or corrupting sources like bcspace did with his/her response to this OP.


The original is not to be missed - see:

http://www.truthandgrace.com/1822digging.htm

Following one reference from the same page, I came upon this:

The Vermont American.
Vol. ? Middlebury, Conn., May 7, 1828. No. ?


Middlebury
WEDNESDAY May 7th, 1828.
____________

THE RODSMEN. Instances of great delusion or fanaticism have been rare thro' our country, and particularly so, among the intelligent yeomanry of New England. Since the days of the Salem witchcraft, and the times of the Connecticut Blue Laws, probably nothing has occurred in our states exhibiting such complete fanaticism , and so utter a destitution of propriety and common sense, as the origin and operations of the of a Fraternity of Rodsmen, (formerly existing in this state,) whose character it is now our purpose to briefly sketch.

About 1800 one or two families in Rutland county, who had been considered respectable citizens, and who were, at the time, members of the Baptists church, pretended to have been informed by the Almighty, that they were descendants of the ancient Jews, and were, with their connexions, to be put in possession of the land for some miles around; the way for which was to be providentially prepared by the destruction of their fellow-townsmen. --

They claimed, also, inspired power, which was to cure all sorts of diseases -- intuitive knowledge of lost or stolen goods, and ability to discover the hidden treasures of the earth, as well as the more convenient talent of transmuting ordinary substances into precious metals. Within a year, numbers were added to this band of fanatics; and finally, most of the connexions of its originators were drawn in -- embracing parts of some fifteen families, and numbering nearly forty persons. The instrument of their miraculous powers, was a cleft stick, or rod, something of the form of an inverted Y; and when this talisman was firmly grasped in either hand, by its two points, it was believed to indicate the proper course to be pursued, or point out some substance of medicinal utility, or fix the locality of some valuable mine; -- whichever of these the agent was pleased to wish. In pursuing the directions of this monitor, the most ludicrous and occasionally very calamitous, results followed. Ill-shaped and craggy stones, the offals of animals, decayed wood, and even the most offensive ordure, were gathered up as possessing great virtues; and in one instance, at least, these last articles were administered to a sick person, until the credulous patient was relieved from her disgusting boluses by the hand of death.

Before the adoption of any project among the fraternity, a nod of assent was required from the rods of the whole, which was usually not wanting, provided that of the leader, (or Mugwump, as he was technically called,) appeared favorable. In executing plans approved by "the sublime direction of the rod," excavations were made in the mountains, some to a great depth; -- the frame of a large building was put up, (which is now in use as a barn;) and numbers of horses were killed for their bones. From the bowels of the mountain valuable ore was to be taken; the building was to be erected into a furnace for smelting and refining it; and the horses' bones were to be converted into crucibles!

The operations of this band of mystics attracted but little notice, till the latter part of the following year, when their movements indicated something more serious, and fears were entertained that some high-handed measure would be attempted, as a winding-up scene to their career of folly and infatuation. Their claims to being descendants of the ancient Jews, and lawful inheritors of the whole country, they declared were soon to be established by the hand of Omnipotence. An earthquake was prophecied to happen during the night of the 14th Jan. 1802; at which time the Destroying Angel was to move forward and smite all but the chosen. The scene of carnage which was to ensue had been much dwelt upon; and the ninth and eleventh chapters of the Book of Exekiel, (frequently made the subject of discourses at their meetings,) were declared to have special reference to the coming catastrophe.

As the 14th of January approached, excitement increased throughout the town, and the militia were required to be in order for service at a moment's warning. -- The military stores belonging to the town, were removed from the house of the Mugwump, (who had been their depository.) and the means of producing an earthquake, it is believed, were thus removed.

At sunset of the ominous 14th, the Rodsmen repaired to their leader's house, after nailing upon their door-posts a paper, on which was written -- "Christ our Passover was Sacrificed for us." This was to preserve the habitations of the Faithful from the destruction speedily to be visited upon those of their neighbors, and many affecting interviews were held by the Rodsmen with their children, who were not allowed by the stern decree of the rod to follow their parents, and of whom these infatuates pretended to believe they were taking their final leave. -- At 9 o'clock, the military were under arms, and a sergeant's guard was posted on each of the four streets diverging from the village. In a short time, six Rodsmen, fantastically dressed, and equipped according to the direction they supposed given them, -- (Ezekiel ix, 2), were observed rapidly approaching. After being hailed by the guard, they were fired upon, when they turned and fled. About midnight, the same men approached the village in another direction -- were again hailed, fired upon, and dispersed. Thus ended the strange drama.

Immediately after this exhibition, which had created much consternation, the indignation of the whole people burst upon these shameless impostors. The leaders of the fraternity, therefore, feeling themselves contemptible by the failure of their earthquake; "seeing the "slow-moving finger of scorn" pointed towards them from all their neighbors; and fearing, moreover, that the heavy hand of the law would fall on them for their misdeeds; -- disposed of their property and removed into the county of St. Lawrence, New York; where it is said something of their former delusion stuck by them. They are now mostly dead.



Hmm ... descendants of the Jews, eh? It sounds like a fruitful environment for someone with brains to get a really successful religion going, doesn't it?
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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

Weren't a bunch of Protestants using the same method for finding gold around the same time?
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_bcspace
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _bcspace »

In other words, this criticism is merely presentism.

And your criticism (I guess) of the criticism seems silly. Does having a modern outlook on life make one's opinions invalid?


In this case, yes.

As an example, I read a book once about a small town in Ireland that burned a girl with a severe sinus infection to death in the late 1800's because they believed that she was possessed by fairies. Is it "presentism" to condemn this action as wrong and barbaric? If it is "presentism", does that negate the criticism of this action?


No correlation.
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_quark
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _quark »

brade wrote:Doesn't Dr. Peterson have a testimony of water witching? I thought I heard him say (MormonStories Podcast?) that he had an experience with a dowsing rod that leads him to believe there's something to it. Am I misremembering?

There is a science to this. You simply look for the areas where water may have the biggest chance of gathering under ground. Valleys, gullies, and the base of large bedrock formations.
_brade
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _brade »

bcspace wrote:Do dowsers believe the ability comes from magic or from what they believe to be natural law?

Also.....

"digging for money hid in the earth is a very common thing and in this state it is even considered as honorable and profitable employment"
Palmyra Herald (24 July 1822


In other words, this criticism is merely presentism.


bcspace, what about the criticism that evidence suggests dowsing doesn't work? Is that presentism?
_sock puppet
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _sock puppet »

bcspace wrote:Do dowsers believe the ability comes from magic or from what they believe to be natural law?

Also.....

"digging for money hid in the earth is a very common thing and in this state it is even considered as honorable and profitable employment"
Palmyra Herald (24 July 1822


In other words, this criticism is merely presentism.

Digging, yes. But that's not what JSJr did, now was it? JSJr charged landowners to tell them where on their property to dig, not so much. In fact, the New York Assembly had prior thereto enacted a statute making so charging anyone to be a crime. Now that's what the religious hero JSJr was up to.
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Re: psychic gold hunt

Post by _sock puppet »

keithb wrote:
bcspace wrote:
In other words, this criticism is merely presentism.


And your criticism (I guess) of the criticism seems silly.
keithb, I read that and had to re-check who the poster was. That sentence is so, well stemelbow-ish.
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