Mormonism and Evolution

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_mikwut
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _mikwut »

Hello BCSpace,

You responded to my second post thusly,

What problems would those be?


The two problems I have now taken great pains to articulate in two rather lengthy posts to you which you are seemingly ignoring or playing dumb about.

Worst case senario, some apostles' and prophets' private (and nondoctrinal) interpretation of other doctrine and scripture is wrong. No harm, no foul.


Stop it. Just think and enter a discussion where the most obvious and banal of reasonable and rational conclusions can be conceded among you and I. I specifically am talking about the D&C (not a book written by an apostle giving his opinions) - revelation given in Modern times in Ohio to a believed by you actual and real prophet and oracle of God that initiated one of the most monumental events in the history of man corresponding to the Fall of Man and the sojourn of Christ on the earth, namely the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the latter days - which includes modern day revelation and real priesthood power and new revealed scripture brought forth for us in this modern post enlightenment day (non-trivial things). Wherein an explanation of past historical scripture (Revelations) steeped in a time and place and a culture is given by your actual and living prophet. His words explaining that other scripture that was written in a real time and place were for the express purpose of giving you and me cleared understanding and explanation of the myth and metaphor that are too far in time and place in our modern minds to understand (hence the need for his explanation). It is straightforward, plain and even placed in a simple question answer format (it is not metaphor). It says,

Q. What are we to understand by the book which John saw, which was asealed on the back with seven seals?
A. We are to understand that it contains the revealed will, mysteries, and the works of God; the hidden things of his economy concerning this earth during the seven thousand years of its continuance, or its temporal existence.

Why on earth would a prophet today - speaking our culture and language simply steep the confusion of time and place in more confusing metaphor that would remain un-explained (even though it is an explanation in simple question and answer format) until BCSpace with the most unassuming nonchalant attitude comes along with a rather confusing itself explanation of the benign explanation? Or, in the alternative why can't you concede rational minds read those words in the common way a rational mind living and speaking the english language today would understand those words to mean? Further, if we have to accept you know better than the plain meaning of words in your method of reconciliation - what need for the prophet in the first place? Why not accept a Pope that at least speaks in the time and place we are in with him? Or a pastor, or a rabbi? What need for a prophet if more confusion is the result? That is a little worse than your proposed worst case scenario.

I am reminded of Thomas Aquinas who said, "one should not try to defend the Christian faith with arguments that make it ridiculous, because they are in obvious contradiction with reason" - you obviously believe that because you accept science and the need for a reconciliation.

I have no problem with there being an beginning.


Please clarify and don't equivocate. As a believing Mormon I understand that you reject a doctrine of creation ex nihilo? So exactly what regarding a beginning do you not have a problem with. Remember the remarkable thing about Genesis is it was first contra position to ordering type of Deity - a deity strikingly similar to what I was taught by my CES employed Mormon father while growing up.

If you feel there are flaws in my modus operandi, then feel free to point out what necessary part or parts of my hypothesis is wrong or in conflict.


That is exactly what I am doing.

If you defend your faith with an elasticity of meaning that reaches to arbitrary levels with the most banal meaning of words and combined with the balancing act of "metaphor" and "figurative" and "symbolic" and prophets statements are waved off with a no big deal it would at least behoove you to explain why you can do so. You could explain how rational minds can know when to take serious spiritual roles such as prophets and seers writing modern day scripture seriously and when not too. I am taking your faith seriously as what it claims itself to be by its own scripture - you are not.

regards, mikwut
All communication relies, to a noticeable extent on evoking knowledge that we cannot tell, all our knowledge of mental processes, like feelings or conscious intellectual activities, is based on a knowledge which we cannot tell.
-Michael Polanyi

"Why are you afraid, have you still no faith?" Mark 4:40
_Franktalk
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _Franktalk »

Sethbag wrote:That's just silly. The proof that there has indeed been enough time for evolution is all around us. You are relying on bad information if you think there hasn't been.


I don't see all of this evidence all around me that you speak of.

But more important. You stated that evolution does not wait yet you say that random mutations are what evolution acts on. If indeed evolution does not wait for a random mutation then what drives the mutation to occur? Silly me I thought that mutations occur at random at a molecular level when cells copy their parts.
_Darth J
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _Darth J »

bcspace:

If LDS teachings and evolution are so obviously consistent, why do you need to present a "theory" that purports to reconcile the two?
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _Jason Bourne »

bcspace wrote:
What problems would those be? Worst case senario, some apostles' and prophets' private (and nondoctrinal) interpretation of other doctrine and scripture is wrong. No harm, no foul.
.



The hubris in this statement is simply amazing. JFS and BRM ( and many others) actually read the scriptures as well as the revelations and words of the latter day prophets and believed them. Even in the face of science. And along comes BC and he sweeps it all away as private and non doctrinal interpretation. Wow.

Well BC show us the official teachings that there was death before the fall of adam as well as pre Adamite humans and maybe you have a leg to stand on.

Till you have more something more than the official "We really don't know" you are on shaky ground.
_EAllusion
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _EAllusion »

Buffalo wrote:
Non sequitur. "Random environment conditions" is consistent with not being able to track the motion of every atom in the world.


You are confused.

"Random" just means unpredictable in this sense. Unpredictable to us. Theoretically, every random mutation that ever has happened has been predestined since the Big-Bang through the inevitable motion and flux of the bits of energy that make up our universe. And if you knew enough about the preconditions, you could predict with perfectly accuracy the results.

"Undirected" just means not requiring direction beyond the physical forces at play. It is of course possible that a god-being is sitting behind the quantum curtain directing each event. This idea isn't incompatible with evolution. It's just superfluous.
_Franktalk
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _Franktalk »

EAllusion wrote:...."Random" just means unpredictable in this sense. Unpredictable to us. Theoretically, every random mutation that ever has happened has been predestined since the Big-Bang through the inevitable motion and flux of the bits of energy that make up our universe. And if you knew enough about the preconditions, you could predict with perfectly accuracy the results...



Does this mean that a system of parts like a human has no free will? Are our thoughts preprogrammed so we act out a preset path? So nobody ever has invented a thing they were just puppets of the initial conditions of the universe?

I think you went to deterministic land and drank the koolaid.
_huckelberry
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _huckelberry »

Above i have read several times that evolution must employ only random changes. I would like to ask why. Is there any reason beyond doctrinal purity to exclude all non ramdom changes?

EAllusion mentions the view that God could be behind all the events which happen but reasonably suspects that God could be seen as superflous in this view.

My own view is that God created the ground materials which evolution uses. However I am enough of a Biblicist to picture God cultivating his vinyard growing on that ground. I see a role for diversified (random) changes along with intentional changes. This picture would be a hypothetical view of how the facts of evolution could fit with creation. Certainly it is a view of evolution with some differences from one which excludes a role for God. On the other hand I am unaware of any facts or observations which contradict this sort of view.
_sock puppet
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _sock puppet »

huckelberry wrote:Above i have read several times that evolution must employ only random changes. I would like to ask why. Is there any reason beyond doctrinal purity to exclude all non ramdom changes?

EAllusion mentions the view that God could be behind all the events which happen but reasonably suspects that God could be seen as superflous in this view.

My own view is that God created the ground materials which evolution uses. However I am enough of a Biblicist to picture God cultivating his vinyard growing on that ground. I see a role for diversified (random) changes along with intentional changes. This picture would be a hypothetical view of how the facts of evolution could fit with creation. Certainly it is a view of evolution with some differences from one which excludes a role for God. On the other hand I am unaware of any facts or observations which contradict this sort of view.

As to the underlined passages, why? and why?
_huckelberry
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _huckelberry »

Sock Puppet," why and why?"

I was making a comment to the question of how the idea of a creator God could fit with the observation of evolutionary processes in history. To ask me why I believe in a creator God changes the subject considerably. Replying briefly I would point to my experience, human history of experience with Spirit, Jesus Christ, God called me to believe as reasons to believe. I do suspect that there is not natural power to get life going but that is a secondary reason not a primary reason to believe in God.

I think trying to conceive of God not including the idea of creator leaves the idea of God incoherent.
_bcspace
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Re: Mormonism and Evolution

Post by _bcspace »

If you are referring to D&C 77, LDS doctrine on that section is clear enough not to preclude evolution.

It sure doesn't! And all it takes not to preclude that is to ignore the plain meaning of ordinary words!


Incorrect. To wit:

D&C 77:6–7 . Why Was the Book Sealed That John Saw?

“‘The book which John saw’ represented the real history of the world—what the eye of God has seen, what the recording angel has written; and the seven thousand years, corresponding to the seven seals of the Apocalyptic volume, are as seven great days during which Mother Earth will fulfill her mortal mission, laboring six days and resting upon the seventh, her period of sanctification. These seven days do not include the period of our planet’s creation and preparation as a dwelling place for man. They are limited to Earth’s ‘temporal existence,’ that is, to Time, considered as distinct from Eternity.” (Whitney, Saturday Night Thoughts, p. 11.)
Doctrine and Covenants Institute Student Manual Section 77 - Questions and Answers on the Book of Revelation


By the way, Sethbag asked a question a little while back that is begged throughout your theory of The Gospel according to the Planet of the Apes.

I wonder if you might be inclined to address it at any time:

What reason, other than to support a pre-existing belief system, is there to believe that such a scheme actually happened?


Non sequitur. I haven't asked anyone to believe it nor have I said this is how creation happened. I have merely hypothesized a situation that is not in conflict with science or LDS doctrine.

If LDS teachings and evolution are so obviously consistent, why do you need to present a "theory" that purports to reconcile the two?


Because there are LDS who erroneously accept nondoctrinal statements as doctrine and there are critics who erroneously assume the LDS Church has a creationist doctrine.
Machina Sublime
Satan's Plan Deconstructed.
Your Best Resource On Joseph Smith's Polygamy.
Conservatism is the Gospel of Christ and the Plan of Salvation in Action.
The Degeneracy Of Progressivism.
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