A Summary of my Catholic Experience

[_quark]

Ceeboo,

Honestly, my first gut reaction to the idea of bringing the body and blood of a deceased human being out to a table in the middle of a room is that of discomfort. However, I'm trying to have an open mind as I've also been trying to do with my own cultural religion (Mormonism).

This is likely way off the mark, but the act you speak of seems to really bring a literal Christ into the worship process. Alternatively, I could have picked up a print copy of the Kinnaird Resurrection, placed on the alter in the middle of the room and said to the people, "Here is the Risen Lord." What you describe is more than mere symbol. At least that is what I gather. Am I on the right track?

Thanks!

[Guest]

Ceeboo will no doubt reply for himself. But if you want to understand the doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church on this and other matters, a good place to start is the Catechism on the Vatican website. One may conclude that what is claimed is untrue, or even meaningless, but they certainly do their best to explain the problem you raise in the most reasonable way they can manage. I wonder what you think of it?

Here is a relevant portion (numbers in text are references to notes in the original)

1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."199 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."200 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."201

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. the Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:

It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. the priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.202

and St. Ambrose says about this conversion:

Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. the power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed.... Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.203

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."204

1377 The Eucharistic presence of Christ begins at the moment of the consecration and endures as long as the Eucharistic species subsist. Christ is present whole and entire in each of the species and whole and entire in each of their parts, in such a way that the breaking of the bread does not divide Christ.205

1378 Worship of the Eucharist. In the liturgy of the Mass we express our faith in the real presence of Christ under the species of bread and wine by, among other ways, genuflecting or bowing deeply as a sign of adoration of the Lord. "The Catholic Church has always offered and still offers to the sacrament of the Eucharist the cult of adoration, not only during Mass, but also outside of it, reserving the consecrated hosts with the utmost care, exposing them to the solemn veneration of the faithful, and carrying them in procession."206

1379 The tabernacle was first intended for the reservation of the Eucharist in a worthy place so that it could be brought to the sick and those absent outside of Mass. As faith in the real presence of Christ in his Eucharist deepened, the Church became conscious of the meaning of silent adoration of the Lord present under the Eucharistic species. It is for this reason that the tabernacle should be located in an especially worthy place in the church and should be constructed in such a way that it emphasizes and manifests the truth of the real presence of Christ in the Blessed Sacrament.

1380 It is highly fitting that Christ should have wanted to remain present to his Church in this unique way. Since Christ was about to take his departure from his own in his visible form, he wanted to give us his sacramental presence; since he was about to offer himself on the cross to save us, he wanted us to have the memorial of the love with which he loved us "to the end,"207 even to the giving of his life. In his Eucharistic presence he remains mysteriously in our midst as the one who loved us and gave himself up for us,208 and he remains under signs that express and communicate this love:

The Church and the world have a great need for Eucharistic worship. Jesus awaits us in this sacrament of love. Let us not refuse the time to go to meet him in adoration, in contemplation full of faith, and open to making amends for the serious offenses and crimes of the world. Let our adoration never cease.209

1381 "That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.' For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 ('This is my body which is given for you.'), St. Cyril says: 'Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'"

To understand some of this, you need to realize that it is phrased on the basis of the point of view of the ancient Greek thinker Aristotle, who as interpreted by the medieval theologian Thomas Aquinas distinguished between the essence of a thing (its 'substance'), and its non-essential properties, (its 'accidents') such as color, texture, taste and smell. The idea is that as a result of the consecration of the Mass, the bread and wine become in substance the body and blood of Christ while retaining the 'accidents' of bread and wine.

[_Ceeboo]

Hi quark,

Ceeboo,

Honestly, my first gut reaction to the idea of bringing the body and blood of a deceased human being out to a table in the middle of a room is that of discomfort.

Understood (Please know that there are many Catholics who struggle with this (or at least parts of this) as well.)

Having said that, please also consider that there are many/most that do not see a "deceased human being" but rather The Risen and Living Lord in this Holy Eucharist.

However, I'm trying to have an open mind as I've also been trying to do with my own cultural religion (Mormonism).

As someone who has/does enjoy all these boards, I find myself sharing your view.

This is likely way off the mark, but the act you speak of seems to really bring a literal Christ into the worship process.

Yes!

Alternatively, I could have picked up a print copy of the Kinnaird Resurrection, placed on the alter in the middle of the room and said to the people, "Here is the Risen Lord."

I guess you could do that but I would suggest/believe that it is a book?
(Please know that there are Millions and Millions of my fellow Bothers and Sisters in Christ, in addition to mnay of my fellow Catholics, that do not believe that the Catholic Holy Eucharist is the Literal Real Presence Of Christ. To be fair)

What you describe is more than mere symbol. At least that is what I gather. Am I on the right track?

You are more than "on the right track". You are right on the money.
In Catholicism it is indeed more than a mere symbol. It is the Literal Body and Blood of the Risen Lord.

There are MANY other Christian denominations/Churches that treat this as a symbol (In memory of) and I for one, have exactly ZERO problem with that.

Thanks!

Pleasure! :)

Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Hoops]

Not entirely unique, my friend.
Our beloved Lutheran Brothers/Sisters also treat the Holy Eucharist the same. (With a few minor "debates" concerning authority to consecrate and such)

Yes! Of course! You are correct and my statement is incorrect. But, I think, my point remains.

[_Ceeboo]

Yes! Of course! You are correct and my statement is incorrect.

At last! You admit I am correct. :) (I have been waiting years for this)

But, I think, my point remains.

Clearly, your point does remain

To add: The Lutheran/Catholic thing should come as no real surprise when one considers that Luther was/is an ex Catholic Monk.

Peace,
Ceeboo

[_Hoops]

At last! You admit I am correct. :) (I have been waiting years for this)

And it could be years more before it happens again... so enjoy.


And don't tell anyone it happened this time...

[_why me]

At last! You admit I am correct. :) (I have been waiting years for this)

And it could be years more before it happens again... so enjoy.


And don't tell anyone it happened this time...

Actually, you were correct. Catholics and lutherans disagree on the meaning of the communion. It does not have the same meaning for lutherans as it does for catholics. And catholics are not encouraged to go to other churches and if they do, they should not take the lutheran communion or for that matter the LDS sacrament. The catholic eucharist is special. at least if one is a devout catholic.

[_why me]

However, we need to remember that catholics actually drink the wine from the same chalice. And the wine has alcohol. This means that many catholics do not drink from it. But this is also true for the lutherans. They tend to have separate cups for the wine. But former alcoholics do not drink it or those who abstain from alcohol do not either.

[_why me]

What you describe is more than mere symbol. At least that is what I gather. Am I on the right track?

Thanks!

That's right. And that is what separates the catholics from the lutherans and what makes the catholic communion different in meaning and why non catholics cannot partake of it.

Nor should anyone who is unworthy. Back in the day, to receive communion, one went to confession first. And even today, the priest can receive confessions before mass or on a saturday during the time for confession.

[_Ceeboo]

Catholics and lutherans disagree on the meaning of the communion. It does not have the same meaning for lutherans as it does for catholics.

.