In Which Res Ipsa Abandons the Illusion of Control Over What People Post In a Thread f/k/a Thinking About ...

[Res Ipsa]

As it doesn’t look like Moksha is up for a conversation, I’m just going to post my thoughts on this thread. My starting place for this thread was that, if we want to make progress against sexist speech and behavior, we should view it as a problem to be solved and not as moral defect in someone’s character. That allows us to keep self defense mechanisms from getting in the way of discussing harm reduction.

I think my conversation with Schmo is a good illustration. The portion of our brains where the reasoning happens was the last to evolve and is relatively fragile. It is very easy for emotions or distractions to override our reasoning. Once his emotions subsided, we were able to have a rational conversation. And we both reasoned our way to an understanding that was very much different than the day before, when it seemed we were light years apart.

Men generally seem oriented toward problem solving. Thinking about and talking about sexist speech and behavior as a problem to be solved taps into this general orientation. But men can’t access the problem solving part of their brains when they feel they are under attack. The emotions get in the way.

If we take the concept of privilege seriously, then men are mostly blind to the speech and behavior that is hurtful to women. That means finding a way to alert a person who uses sexist speech or engages in sexist behavior to the nature of the speech or behavior without engaging the person’s defense mechanisms.

But there’s a broader issue that has some implications that I believe are worth thinking or talking about. I agree with the many women I’ve heard say that they shouldn’t have to fix the problem or spend time educating men about the problem. It’s a problem that men need to address and solve.

I thought the woman who wrote the article Lem posted made a valuable point. She attributed the problem to the toxic manner in which men often treat each other. Her husband is one of the good guys, but she concludes he can’t change. A man, even a good man, can’t change. Men, together, can change.

So, being a man, how do I go about changing the toxicity in the way men interact with each other? That’s what I was thinking about when I tried to engage Moksha in a conversation. He’d already been attacked and belittled. I suspect that’s the type of thing the article’s author was talking about. So, I did my best to meet him where he was and tried to persuade him to drop his defenses.

I’m still processing some of the reactions I got. Lem, I am sorry for causing you pain by the way I spoke to Moksha. It shows the magnitude of the problem we are trying to solve when one human trying to treat another with kindness and compassion causes hurt to an onlooker. I can’t think of a way to avoid that. If men are going to reduce the toxicity in the way they treat each other, then it’s inevitable that women are going to see that.

Jersey Girl, I don’t think I was treating Moksha as a child. I was taking my best shot at persuading him to drop his defenses so we could have a real conversation about sexist stereotypes and language. I guess I’m feeling like, if men are going to rise to the challenge and try to reduce the toxic nature of how we deal with each other, we should be able to have some space to do that in. If I think I need to approach Moksha or anyone else in a way you’d describe as hand holding, I don’t think it’s too big of an ask that you give me some leeway in how I go about.

I’m persuaded that the problem of sexist speech and behavior is intertwined enough with basic male cultural norms that it will not go away without fundamental changes in the way men treat each other. And I agree that it’s our job to make the change happen. All I ask is a little space in which to help bring about that change in the way I think I can do it best.

[Lem]

I thought the woman who wrote the article Lem posted made a valuable point. She attributed the problem to the toxic manner in which men often treat each other.

No she didn't. She attributed it to the toxic manner in which men often treat women.

In the centuries of feminist movements that have washed up and away, good men have not once organized their own mass movement to change themselves and their sons or to attack the mean-spirited, teasing, punching thing that passes for male culture. Not once. Bastards. Don’t listen to me. Listen to each other. Talk to each other. Earn your power for once.

The gender war that has broken out in this country is flooding all our houses. It’s rising on the torrent of memories that every woman has. Those memories have come loose from the attic and the basement where we’ve stashed them. They are floating all around us and there is no place left to store them out of sight. Not just memories of sexual abuse.

Memories of being dismissed, disdained, distrusted. Memories of having to endure put-downs at the office, catcalls in the parking lot, barked orders at a dinner party. And, for some reason, the most chilling memory of all, the one Christine Blasey Ford called up and that we all recognized: the laughter.

The laughter of men who are bonding with each other by mocking us. When Ford testified under oath that the laughter is the sharpest memory of her high school assault, every woman within the sound of her voice could hear that laughter, had heard that laughter, somewhere, somehow.

No man right now understands the flood that is rushing through women’s brains, and only women in the deepest denial have evacuated their minds before the flood could reach them.

When good men like Sen. Christopher A. Coons (D-Del.) give heartfelt, sincere speeches about how we must listen to women, I don’t know whether to coo or laugh or cry or yell. Think about “listen to women” as a program for change. It says to women: You will continue to suffer these abuses, men will continue to do disgusting things to you, the storms will keep coming, the tide will continue to rise, but now, we will listen and help you rebuild.

I wasn't hurt by you showing compassion to Moksha. I was hurt that that particular long and careful response to Moksha's sexist comments didn't seem to include telling him his behavior was unacceptable (not that he was morally deficient, simply that his WORDS were unacceptable). Maybe you were working up to that. But after the abusive nature of 20 pages or so, it did hurt that the call for kindness and compassion went out for..... the one making the sexist remarks.

I guess I’m feeling like, if men are going to rise to the challenge and try to reduce the toxic nature of how we deal with each other, we should be able to have some space to do that in. If I think I need to approach Moksha or anyone else in a way you’d describe as hand holding, I don’t think it’s too big of an ask that you give me some leeway in how I go about.

I’m persuaded that the problem of sexist speech and behavior is intertwined enough with basic male cultural norms that it will not go away without fundamental changes in the way men treat each other. And I agree that it’s our job to make the change happen. All I ask is a little space in which to help bring about that change in the way I think I can do it best.

I hope you are afforded that space, and that leeway. More specifically though, I hope men AND women can be afforded that space, and that leeway.

That means finding a way to alert a person who uses sexist speech or engages in sexist behavior to the nature of the speech or behavior without engaging the person’s defense mechanisms.

I would add, and without asking the victim of the sexist behavior to do it, and without minimizing the damage done or ignoring the needs of the victim. Tall tasks, I know, but I am hoping that's eventually what you hope to achieve.

[Res Ipsa]

I read her reference to male culture as not being limited to men’s treatment of women. Young men bully other men, and bond through their laughter over the victim of their bullying. I may have misunderstood, based on what I’ve heard listening to women, but I don’t think women want men to treat them the same way we treat other men, because we treat each other in some pretty crappy ways. I think they want to be treated decently, as one human being should treat a fellow human being. So, it looks to me like there may be two things going on: sexist remarks and behavior and the meanness, punchiness, teasing etc. that is part of how men treat men and women.

As to my attempted conversation with Moksha, we barely even got started. Yes, I would have talked with him about his comments, but not until I saw some sign that he was out of defense mode. Otherwise, there was no chance that I could nudge his perception even a little bit. That’s why I didn’t lead with his comments. Others were doing that with no positive effect at all. His brain wasn’t ready to problem solve.

And I do want to emphasize that the only ask I’m making of women is to give men who try reduce to the toxicity of male culture the space they need to do that. I’m not asking anything with regard to when or how you point out sexist words or behavior. I have no standing to tell you how you should or should not act when subjected to sexist language or behavior. And to do so would only reinforce the stereotypes we want to move away from.

I don’t know what it will take to make male culture less toxic, but when I look at gamergaters, incel culture, and techie dudebros, I have to think we’ve been doing some important things wrong. Maybe we’ll need to hold each other’s hands or forget some of the garbage Society has fed us and approach the world with the wonder and curiosity of children. I dunno. I just want the space to try.

[asbestosman]

I acknowledge that the burden shouldn't be on women to fix sexism. I also fear that leaving men to fix the problem among ourselves might turn out to be the blind leading the blind. I don't have the right answer to it--I'm part of the problem. I'll make my best effort and I will fail. But men are still obligated to make that effort.

Women deserve justice, but it seems that bringing someone to recognize, feel remorse, and change requires we offer some mercy as well. However, then we run into that whole "mercy shouldn't rob justice thing". Maybe we don't deserve mercy, and maybe when we're offered it we often misuse it to reoffend. And yet we also see some that appear to make progress like Some Schmo.

[Lem]

I read her reference to male culture as not being limited to men’s treatment of women. Young men bully other men, and bond through their laughter over the victim of their bullying. I may have misunderstood...

Yes, i think you did. She made multiple references to how male culture mocks women, abuses women, laughs at women. She gave many, many examples. The entire thrust of her essay was noting how women feel when men treat them this way. She was not making men the focus of her piece, except to note how badly some men treat women. I do not think she would agree with using her essay as a starting point to talk about how men can treat men better.

Additionally, i posted her essay in an effort to express how women feel when men treat them this way. I have commented on that several times, on this thread of yours titled "thinking about feminism," but if your intent is to focus on how men treat men, then please leave feminism out of the title and don't misappropriate the essay i posted.

Carve out your space for men to treat men well, but please don't do it by misappropriating what i have said about how men treat women.

[honorentheos]

Over the course of multiple threads I've found myself thinking, "If Lem didn't act like an asshole towards people it would probably make the conversation go better." But then, what do I know. I'm a guy and apparently being an asshole towards an individual due to pent up anger and frustration is not questionable because guys have been pricks towards women forever. So to speak about individual behavior is off limits.

I think that's an insurmountable problem in these threads.

[Lem]

Over the course of multiple threads I've found myself thinking, "If Lem didn't act like an asshole towards people it would probably make the conversation go better."

"If she would just shut her pretty little mouth and stop disagreeing with the men who are trying to converse, wouldn't it be so much better."

Thank you for your contribution, honorentheos. Your imagery is an excellent insight into the male toxicity referred to in the article being discussed.

Do you have anything helpful to add? Or would you like to expain more why sexist comments are acceptable responses when one doesn't like the way a woman interacts? Maybe explain how if she got along better, she wouldn't get crude sexist slurs thrown her way?

Thanks, honor. Your response is beyond inappropriate. In fact, it makes me wonder, "if [honor] didn't act like an asshole towards people it would probably make the conversation go better." /s

[honorentheos]

Over the course of multiple threads I've found myself thinking, "If Lem didn't act like an asshole towards people it would probably make the conversation go better."

"If she would just shut her pretty little mouth and stop disagreeing with the men who are trying to converse, wouldn't it be so much better."

I'm saying you respond to people like an asshole. Dudes have their different ways of excusing being assholes and pricks, too.

The right thing to do is treat the individuals in front of you as human beings and not be an asshole. Full stop. I'm sorry that Mormonism and male culture hurt you. I get it. But using it as an excuse to behave like an asshole is your own personal problem. Sexism aside, multiple people have shown some growth in these threads. You're not one of them. So far, anyway.

I'm not interested in pandering. I think there's been plenty of good things that have arose out of the conversations. But seriously. You are treating people poorly and use this as cover for individual bad behavior. It's unfortunate.

ETA: Also, yes, I'm being a bit of an asshole bringing this up but it's not showing any signs of improving. Asshole to asshole, you're being an asshole.

[Lem]

"If she would just shut her pretty little mouth and stop disagreeing with the men who are trying to converse, wouldn't it be so much better."

I'm saying you respond to people like an asshole. Dudes have their different ways of excusing being assholes and pricks, too.

The right thing to do is treat the individuals in front of you as human beings and not be an asshole. Full stop. I'm sorry that Mormonism and male culture hurt you. I get it. But using it as an excuse to behave like an asshole is your own personal problem. Sexism aside, multiple people have shown some growth in these threads. You're not one of them. So far, anyway.

I'm not interested in pandering. I think there's been plenty of good things that have arose out of the conversations. But seriously. You treat people poorly and use this as cover for individual bad behavior. It's unfortunate.

You've read this entire thread and you think I treat people poorly, and I haven't shown any growth while others have?

Really.

[Lem]

ETA: Also, yes, I'm being a bit of an asshole bringing this up but it's not showing any signs of improving. Asshole to asshole, you're being an asshole.