A Stak Attack, 2 missionaries, and suffering in God's plan

[_Buffalo]

Cool OP. Would read again.

[_Hades]

“Ah yes, but what if I told you that we were spiritual beings just have a human experience before we move on to greater things?”

What the hell? See, this is the kind of s*** that bothers me with Mormon folk, it’s like they have this stock of rapid fire aphorisms that feel and sound like they were constructed by some little eternally happy and perky gnome in the basement of Hallmark’s headquarters. I imagine in my mind’s eye that this is the sort of s*** that passes for wisdom in Mormon chapels across the heartland, that it’s said by some shmuck in a dark suit and red tie and the immediate response of everyone paying attention is to give a knowing nod, like the fake audience of an infomercial.

LOL. You nailed it.

[_stemelbow]

MrStak = Holden Caulfield (if I remember that name correctly). I think that book was written in the 40s. I liked it, so don't go finding some silly offense.

[_Buffalo]

What is so deep in the propisition that because there is so much suffering in the world there can not be a creator? I odn't know if that alone exhibits depth.

If there be an eternity, a world beyond our own, a life beyond this, then how are we to know what place suffering has for us? Perhaps there is some eternal growth there that we simply don't know or understand. And perhaps the growth is in humility.

The kind of attitude that prevails here is much akin to the naïve religionist who presumes such a black and white stance as to discount the ideas and thoughts of others. The religionist's conversation-stopping "you devil" exclamation is matched by the secularist (or whatever you would like to be called) every whit. It's a holier than thou. It's stifling. It's a shame. There is great potential to be had, but that potential is wisked away in a flurry of "I'm better than you" light bulbs.

Perhaps it's the meaningless and pointlessness of the suffering, Stem.

[_stemelbow]

Perhaps it's the meaningless and pointlessness of the suffering, Stem.

I'd put my money on it. There is much more to this to consider. Perhaps God has no choice in the suffering that occurs. That's not to say God could not stop it, perhaps he can. But to say since He is creating a world like those that have already been created. Since He's furthering the ultimate goal in creating, this world is reality. It is what it is. Its not that its something He can control if'n the eternal laws of creation won't allow the perpetuation of creation sans suffering. If so, suffering then is a necessity in eternity. It doesn't speak to the existence or non-existence of God.

[_Buffalo]

Perhaps it's the meaningless and pointlessness of the suffering, Stem.

I'd put my money on it. There is much more to this to consider. Perhaps God has no choice in the suffering that occurs. That's not to say God could not stop it, perhaps he can. But to say since He is creating a world like those that have already been created. Since He's furthering the ultimate goal in creating, this world is reality. It is what it is. Its not that its something He can control if'n the eternal laws of creation won't allow the perpetuation of creation sans suffering. If so, suffering then is a necessity in eternity. It doesn't speak to the existence or non-existence of God.

In which case, God is subordinate to those arbitrary-sounding laws. Shouldn't we be worshiping eternal law instead of this limited "God" person?

[_MrStakhanovite]

Was it Victor Frankle or some guy who wrote a book on that? Nobility is something that for the most part is apprised OF you by those who observe and respect and even worship.

There are a number of books by survivors, but I’m not aware of any of them talk about their camp experience as something that taught them respect, Victor Frankle mostly wrote about how he clung to his terrible life, because he wanted to reconstruct his destroyed dissertation and how he began to recognize human beings who had given up. Victor and Primo Levi speak about how their humanity was robbed of them, and how their treatment had debased them.

What lessons did these men learn that justified the slaughter of millions? There isn’t any.

Are we only talking about tragic suffering for no purpose other than the circumstance of suffering alone?

Yes, that is exactly the kind of suffering I speak of, not heartache, not a beating, not an execution for a crime you are innocent of, but long, terrible, drawn out suffering that does not fulfill any real end other than some kind of cruel extermination.

The overall point of this, is that there is suffering in this world that God has no business allowing, not that suffering can sometimes bring about something positive, but that there is suffering on this earth, today, right now, that should not be going on if God was in control with a kind of master plan that Mormons like to present.

[_stemelbow]

In which case, God is subordinate to those arbitrary-sounding laws. Shouldn't we be worshiping eternal law instead of this limited "God" person?

nah. I don't see why. It is because of Him that we are here. The laws are just laws.

[_Buffalo]

In which case, God is subordinate to those arbitrary-sounding laws. Shouldn't we be worshiping eternal law instead of this limited "God" person?

nah. I don't see why. It is because of Him that we are here. The laws are just laws.

God obeys the laws like a servant obeys his master, in your thesis. It seems wiser to cut out the middleman and go directly to the source.

[_stemelbow]

God obeys the laws like a servant obeys his master, in your thesis.

Not really. Besides some servants don't obey masters much at all, or that has been the case.