A Stak Attack, 2 missionaries, and suffering in God's plan

[_Darth J]

The problem of evil, which is what this thread is really about, is a critique of theism. Theism is not the idea of any kind of God(s) existing at all. Theism is a set of propositions about a specific kind of God----like the kind that Mormons believe in.

The problem of evil is not trivial, and being disturbed by pointless, meaningless suffering in this world is not part of "the echo chamber of this board." It is a serious issue that theists and non-theists have been grappling with for hundreds of years.

What Stak is indicating in the OP is that Mormons really don't have anything useful, interesting, or innovative to say about the problem of evil. They just parrot trite maxims that other people already thought of. The utter failure of Mormonism to come up with any unique or satisfying theodicy is extremely curious for a religious movement that claims to be led by prophets and apostles who allegedly receive continuing revelation, and that was allegedly started by a prophet who was foreordained to restore divine truths about the nature of God and His plan for the human race. In fact, the failure of Mormonism to have anything in particular to say about the problem of evil is as much a problem for Mormonism's claim to have unique answers about the nature of God and the purpose of life as the problem of evil is a problem for theism in general.

But let's not be too critical of the Restored Gospel. After all, God hasn't bothered to tell His modern prophets and apostles the answer to one of the biggest questions about the meaning of life, but at least He did make sure to tell Joseph Smith the name of the star He lives by.

[_Buffalo]

God obeys the laws like a servant obeys his master, in your thesis.

Not really. Besides some servants don't obey masters much at all, or that has been the case.

This god is so beholden to the Law, if god violates even one portion of it, god ceases to be god. It sounds like the Law is the real God to me.

[_stemelbow]

What Stak is indicating in the OP is that Mormons really don't have anything useful, interesting, or innovative to say about the problem of evil. They just parrot trite maxims that other people already thought of. The utter failure of Mormonism to come up with any unique or satisfying theodicy is extremely curious for a religious movement that claims to be led by prophets and apostles who allegedly receive continuing revelation, and that was allegedly started by a prophet who was foreordained to restore divine truths about the nature of God and His plan for the human race. In fact, the failure of Mormonism to have anything in particular to say about the problem of evil is as much a problem for Mormonism's claim to have unique answers about the nature of God and the purpose of life as the problem of evil is a problem for theism in general.

Much like the thread in which Spurven demos the problem with "mopologetics", whatever that means, has a corrolary and its right here. The head is often buried in the sand here as dogmatism takes the place of discussion. Of course Mormonism presents plenty of unique ideas concerning the problem of evil.

1. God did not create ex nihilo--which would suggest that God did not conjur up the concept of evil doings before creating anything—as would have to be the case of the traditional Christian position.

2. God is physical and operates within the realm of eternal laws.

3. There is existence pre-eminent to mortality. That is we all had a choice to come here and participate in the possible sufferings of life on earth.

4. Infinite atonement on the LDS concept suggests that virtually all of humanity will be saved—thus eternal life is a blessing to all those who suffer, perhaps even for their suffering.

5. Christ descended below them all in the Atonement, meaning God Himself suffered the most of suffering and did so in order to succor those that are in need.

6. The devil, as the poster boy for evil, does what has been done eternally. That is evil is not something that came about as a result of creation. It’s always been practiced and suffering, as a result has always been. Indeed, the reason behind God’s forming spirits was to provide intelligences opportunity to progress and become—something that would not happen otherwise.

[_Buffalo]

6. The devil, as the poster boy for evil, does what has been done eternally. That is evil is not something that came about as a result of creation. It’s always been practiced and suffering, as a result has always been. Indeed, the reason behind God’s forming spirits was to provide intelligences opportunity to progress and become—something that would not happen otherwise.

Presumably the devil's plan would have eliminated things like child rape. I'll take his idea over the nonsensical Elohim scheme.

[_stemelbow]

Presumably the devil's plan would have eliminated things like child rape. I'll take his idea over the nonsensical Elohim scheme.

My what large faith in the devil you have, Buffalo

It wouldn't have. he was proposin' a way that was not possible, I'd say.

[_Darth J]

What Stak is indicating in the OP is that Mormons really don't have anything useful, interesting, or innovative to say about the problem of evil. They just parrot trite maxims that other people already thought of. The utter failure of Mormonism to come up with any unique or satisfying theodicy is extremely curious for a religious movement that claims to be led by prophets and apostles who allegedly receive continuing revelation, and that was allegedly started by a prophet who was foreordained to restore divine truths about the nature of God and His plan for the human race. In fact, the failure of Mormonism to have anything in particular to say about the problem of evil is as much a problem for Mormonism's claim to have unique answers about the nature of God and the purpose of life as the problem of evil is a problem for theism in general.

Much like the thread in which Spurven demos the problem with "mopologetics", whatever that means, has a corrolary and its right here. The head is often buried in the sand here as dogmatism takes the place of discussion. Of course Mormonism presents plenty of unique ideas concerning the problem of evil.

1. God did not create ex nihilo--which would suggest that God did not conjur up the concept of evil doings before creating anything—as would have to be the case of the traditional Christian position.

2. God is physical and operates within the realm of eternal laws.

3. There is existence pre-eminent to mortality. That is we all had a choice to come here and participate in the possible sufferings of life on earth.

4. Infinite atonement on the LDS concept suggests that virtually all of humanity will be saved—thus eternal life is a blessing to all those who suffer, perhaps even for their suffering.

5. Christ descended below them all in the Atonement, meaning God Himself suffered the most of suffering and did so in order to succor those that are in need.

6. The devil, as the poster boy for evil, does what has been done eternally. That is evil is not something that came about as a result of creation. It’s always been practiced and suffering, as a result has always been. Indeed, the reason behind God’s forming spirits was to provide intelligences opportunity to progress and become—something that would not happen otherwise.

None of these things are unique to Mormonism.

Your #1 is not unique to Mormonism. E.g., http://www.anthonyflood.com/griffincrea ... fchaos.htm

Your #2 is #1 phrased in different terms.

Your #3 is not unique to Mormonism. There are people besides Mormons who believe in a pre-mortal existence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-existence

Also, merely asserting #3 does not explain how a theistic God can be omnibenevolent. It does not explain the justice in holding us accountable for choices we do not remember making. It also fails to address why we were not given a choice to live in a world devoid of meaningless suffering, nor why we were not given a choice to reject the idea of an earthly life altogether and just remain with God.

Your #4 is not unique to Mormonism, and is also a misstatement of Mormon doctrine. You are conflating "salvation" and "eternal life," which are not the same thing in Mormonism.

Your #5 is not unique to Mormonism at all. It is simply the basic idea of Christianity.

Your #6 is merely a convoluted way of stating the free-will defense to the problem of evil. The free-will defense is not even close to being unique to Mormonism. It also fails to explain why God has to allow someone's free agency to do evil to me, yet by doing so God interferes with my free agency to choose not to have evil done to me.

[_Morley]

Much like the thread in which Spurven demos the problem with "mopologetics", whatever that means, has a corrolary and its right here. The head is often buried in the sand here as dogmatism takes the place of discussion. Of course Mormonism presents plenty of unique ideas concerning the problem of evil.

1. God did not create ex nihilo--which would suggest that God did not conjur up the concept of evil doings before creating anything—as would have to be the case of the traditional Christian position.

2. God is physical and operates within the realm of eternal laws.

3. There is existence pre-eminent to mortality. That is we all had a choice to come here and participate in the possible sufferings of life on earth.

4. Infinite atonement on the LDS concept suggests that virtually all of humanity will be saved—thus eternal life is a blessing to all those who suffer, perhaps even for their suffering.

5. Christ descended below them all in the Atonement, meaning God Himself suffered the most of suffering and did so in order to succor those that are in need.

6. The devil, as the poster boy for evil, does what has been done eternally. That is evil is not something that came about as a result of creation. It’s always been practiced and suffering, as a result has always been. Indeed, the reason behind God’s forming spirits was to provide intelligences opportunity to progress and become—something that would not happen otherwise.

You do realize that a the concept of a limited, bound God has even more significant problems regarding the Problem of Evil, right?

[_Darth J]

Presumably the devil's plan would have eliminated things like child rape. I'll take his idea over the nonsensical Elohim scheme.

My what large faith in the devil you have, Buffalo

It wouldn't have. he was proposin' a way that was not possible, I'd say.

That's just the free-will theodicy. It is not unique to Mormonism, regardless of the Pearl of Great Price setting the free-will defense in a particular mythos.

[_MrStakhanovite]

Interesting question Stem inadvertently raised. Let’s say some poor woman got gang raped, and ten years later, due to untreated psychological trauma, she kills herself.

If God takes mercy on this poor woman, what can he conceivably do in a Mormon context, to fix the wrongs done to her, and make it right?

[_schreech]

6. The devil, as the poster boy for evil, does what has been done eternally. That is evil is not something that came about as a result of creation.

Hmmm, as a Mormon I was taught that Satan was the son of Elohim (brother of all elohim's children, including Jesus) and was created just like we were. I was also taught that the devil, didn't become the devil until he rebelled against elohim after Jesus's plan for humanity was chosen over his own. Seems like we can definitely pin a creation of both satan and evil to a specific point in time...What church taught you the above?