liz3564 wrote:by the way, thank you so much for taking the time to explain the legal ramifications regarding this case in the OP.
It sounds like the Church, and possibly the Bishop, could be in some legal trouble, if the family decided to pursue this.
I hope they do.
Your middle paragraph there is quite interesting to me. In my post, I just tried to lay out the legal framework for what decision would have to be made by a jury to possibly lead to a finding of legal liability.
I have not followed the facts of this in real life situation, except as set forth in the OP, and so I am conflicted about whether there should or should not be liability. More facts, facts that might suggest that the bishop knew or should have known, about this perp's proclivities beforehand, or how specifically the perp and the victim came to be alone, would likely make it much easier for me personally to reach a decision. I do think LDSC is behind when it comes to the institutional steps for situations it creates for adult-child interactions, and should do much to improve this, including from the Sacrament Meeting pulpit the bishops telling the congregation that they should never be alone, one on one, and should report it at once if they know of any one on one situation.
I take your reaction as one from the public, from which juries are drawn. I find that very informative.
Two questions that I would have asked had I been Bishop is:
1. What can I do to help make things right with this little girl and the family that is suffering due to this tragedy?
2. How can we, as a ward, and how can specifically, I, as a Bishop and father of that ward, prevent this type of incident from happening again?
I think that these are the questions that we, as members of the LDS Church should be focussed on.
The bishop can do very little to make things right for this family and their daughter. What can he do or say? Now the ward can do something. But the bishop, alone? But in the end, it is the family itself that will have to heal from what happened.
Nothing much can be done from not letting this happen again. Perhaps the only thing that can be done is not to call men to positions where childred are involved.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Franktalk wrote: I don't understand why people treat the Holy Spirit as a lookout. That is not His job.
Christ killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit? Paul killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit? Joseph Smith killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Where did this idea come from?
You forgot one thing: this is an antmormon board. Because this is the case, the antimormons and pseudomormons will find any excuse to blame the LDS church or the holy ghost or lack of it in the LDS church. It is ashame really. But such is the nature of this board. As you can see, they ignored your points that you made in my quote of your post.
However, one could be hard on any church that relies on the spirit and yet, abuse occurs. Unfortunately, the antimormons and pseudomormons only concentrate on the LDS church for critism. As my protestan link shows, churches understand freedom of choice and free will. But the ladies and guys on this form just can't seem to get it.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world. Joseph Smith We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…” Joseph Smith
Drifting wrote:In my experience the majority of members and local leaders are sheep like. They are conditioned to do as they are told, to follow the Prophet (Relief Society even have a weekly group chant about this), comply with the handbook, tick the boxes etc.
Is this for real, a chant weekly recited in Relief Society about following the prophet?
Lady TBMs and attending NOMs, do you participate in this chant?
The Relief Society Declaration - repeated out loud, weekly, as a group.
We are beloved spirit daughters of God, and our lives have meaning, purpose, and direction. As a worldwide sisterhood, we are united in our devotion to Jesus Christ, our Savior and Exemplar. We are women of faith, virtue, vision, and charity who:
Increase our testimonies of Jesus Christ through prayer and scripture study.
Seek spiritual strength by following the promptings of the Holy Ghost.
Dedicate ourselves to strengthening marriages, families, and homes.
Find nobility in motherhood and joy in womanhood.
Delight in service and good works.
Love life and learning.
Stand for truth and righteousness.
Sustain the priesthood as the authority of God on earth.
Rejoice in the blessings of the temple, understand our divine destiny, and strive for exaltation.
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.” Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric
"One, two, three...let's go shopping!" Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator
Franktalk wrote: I don't understand why people treat the Holy Spirit as a lookout. That is not His job.
Christ killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit? Paul killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit? Joseph Smith killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Where did this idea come from?
You forgot one thing: this is an antmormon board. Because this is the case, the antimormons and pseudomormons will find any excuse to blame the LDS church or the holy ghost or lack of it in the LDS church. It is ashame really. But such is the nature of this board. As you can see, they ignored your points that you made in my quote of your post.
However, one could be hard on any church that relies on the spirit and yet, abuse occurs. Unfortunately, the antimormons and pseudomormons only concentrate on the LDS church for critism. As my protestan link shows, churches understand freedom of choice and free will. But the ladies and guys on this form just can't seem to get it.
First of all, this is not an anti-Mormon board. Although there are ex-Mormons on this board, it is not anti.
I am also offended that you would refer to me as a pseudo-Mormon. I am more a member of the LDS Church than you ever thought of being. I grew up in the Church. My entire family is active, and I hold both a Ward and a Stake calling. My daughter was sealed in the Raleigh temple this past summer, and her grandfather, the temple president, and my father-in-law sealed her and her husband.
I have not ignored your comment about free agency. You, however, blatantly ignored my comment regarding the how your quote conflicted with the 2nd Article of Faith, which, unless you haven't heard, is part of 13 articles of faith which summarizes the basics of what we in the LDS Church believe.
Get that chip off of your shoulder, and help look for solutions. Quit burying your head in the sand and acting like a problem doesn't exist.
Is society at large problematic involving this incident? Of course it is! No one here is saying that it isn't! But this problem is something that directly affects OUR children. You're a parent. Wake up and take responsibility. You have daughters. Quit acting like there is nothing anyone can do.
You brush off the fact that the Bishop not calling another perpetrator to a 9 year old Primary/Sunday School teacher might be a worthwhile idea.
My experience with church leaders and a child molesting bastard (Why I am so passionate about this subject) -
After my divorce (horrible 19 year marriage), I hooked up again with my sweetheart from college. She too was going through a divorce from her priesthood holding, tithe paying, bishopric member, child molesting bastard husband. He had molested their oldest daughter and tried with another daughter but was rebuffed. When this all came to light, the church leaders, for the most part, acted appropriately. They made sure the husband moved out of the home, contacted the police, offered counseling, etc. Throughout the process though, they appeared to be more concerned with the molesting bastard than with his victims. The daughter was urged not to press charges because the molesting bastard was in counseling, sorry for what he had done, going through the repentance process, wouldn't want to break up an eternal family, blah, blah, blah. From all that pressure, the daughter didn't press charges.
Based on the church leaders counsel, that the molesting bastard had progressed down the repentance trail , had ongoing counseling, and was no longer a threat, he was allowed back into the home (Can you even imagine having a molester back in the home around his victims? This is how TBM and trusting my sweetie was at the time. **shudder**). Although no longer sexually abusive, he now turned physically abusive, beating my sweetie and her kids. They separated and got back together twice more before I came back into her life. I encouraged her to bash his brains out with a baseball bat. Against advice from her Bishop and SP, she chose divorce. She and the kids also chose to resign from the church.
Unfortunately, four years later, she passed away from cancer leaving behind her four children. The two oldest daughters were adult age, but her two youngest were minors. A custody battle ensued between us and the molesting bastard father. Thousands of dollars were spent in attorney fees in an attempt to have the minor kids' custody placed with the eldest daughter. After many case studies, evaluations, psychological tests, etc., we won.
Throughout the process there were letters of reference submitted by each side to bolster their case for the kids. One such reference came from the molesting bastard's Bishop. This Bishop gave him a glowing review of why he should be chosen for custody over the daughter. The Bishop at the same time threw my loving, caring, forgiving, sacrificing, sweetheart under the bus. To read his remarks in the court document would make a maggot puke.
After everything was said and done, I couldn't hold back. Here is my letter to that Bishop. Enjoy -
Bishop John XXXXXX,
This letter is to inform you that the guardianship for the children of *Molester* and *My Sweetie* has rightfully been awarded to the eldest daughter, *Molester’s victim*. The time spent and costs incurred in the effort to secure the children from their deviant father was worth any and all resources required.
Imagine my disappointment though as I read the report of the comments you made to the court appointed social worker. Your glowing support of an abusive child molesting bastard is despicable. Your further characterization of the children’s mother in the report as being “very influential in the formulation of the minor’s negative opinion about *Molester* ” is downright sickening. Let’s not consider the FACT that *Molester* was physically and verbally abusive to his children, or the FACT that they witnessed his abuse of their mother, or the FACT that he mounted their sister when she was 12 years old and ejaculated through his garments on her!! Such events could never have influenced their opinion of him. Nooooooo, they were influenced by their mother!! You really are a piece of work *Biishop’s last name*.
*My Sweetie* desperately reached out to you for help in dealing with her sick ex-husband. Her studies and research in Psychology greatly helped her recognize the controlling, manipulative behavior he was exhibiting. She also realized that the ONLY authority he would respond to in complying with his obligations would be the church (YOU!!). This is why she sent you studies, articles, and paperwork detailing his deviant patterns so that you would be better informed and educated when dealing with him. Obviously you considered this a nuisance, obviously you didn’t read the material, and obviously you chose to support the abusive child molesting priesthood holder over his victims. This comes as no surprise as this seems to be a growing epidemic in the church.
Fortunately the State of California has expert psychologists who rely on sophisticated tests for character evaluation. These tests administered to *Molester* were far more accurate than your faulty “Spirit of Discernment”. Amazingly, the test results mirrored EXACTLY the types of behavior that *My Sweetie* warned you still existed in him. Perhaps she was more “in tune with the spirit” than you. According to the test results “ *Molester* presented as narcissistic and self-centered to enhance his sense of self-worth. Prone to impulsivity and taking risks, he was vulnerable to poor judgement to gratify immediate needs, showing the tendency to be manipulative. He also appeared to displace responsibility for his problems onto others.” The test further concluded that “granting *Molester* parental rights would be psychologically detrimental to (the children).”
It is simply appalling that you would ignore the impassioned pleas for help from a loving protective mother in favor of the lies of a child molester. I truly hope that if your daughters someday need the same assistance from a church leader as *My Sweetie* did, they will find someone more sympathetic to their needs than you. And you are a Bishop!!?? One of the “Lord’s annointed”?? If you had any shred of decency you would resign immediately and give up the charade of being “led by the spirit”.
*Molester* saw you as someone he could deceive and manipulate. *My Sweetie* saw you as a light of hope in dealing with him. He was right, she was wrong. I think you have a pretty good idea of how I see you.
Thanks for nothing.
Jonah
What is most disturbing though is that this sick, damned, molesting bastard is more than likely back in full fellowship with the church. Though he probably is not allowed to teach or participate in certain situations, he no doubt is able to congregate and mingle with totally unsuspecting ward members. He just might be that funny guy sitting behind your family in the chapel making googly eyes at your daughter. Suck on that a little TBM's.
Oh, and Why Me, before you come back with your standard lame "Well, the Bishop was only human and made a mistake..." excuse, Screw you!!
Red flags look normal when you're wearing rose colored glasses.
And of course if this guy is guilty, he could not POSSIBLY have a Mormon wife, because Mormon women would NEVER date, much less marry, a man who was in the least bit unworthy.
Drifting wrote:
VANCOUVER, Washington (KPTV) - A Sunday school teacher in Vancouver is accused of sexually abusing a 9-year-old girl at their church several times, court documents say.
Ryan Whitaker, a divorce attorney with an office on Main Street in Vancouver, is facing charges of rape of a child and child molestation. The alleged abuse happened at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints located on Northeast 50th Avenue.
Authorities said the victim alerted her parents and a bishop at the church. A witness also told the sheriff's office that Whitaker was seen paying special attention to the girl, the court documents said.
"You just don't know people anymore," said Whitaker's neighbor, Linda Christina.
"I don't know if it's true or not, but I am sorry to hear about it and I do feel bad for his wife also," Christina said.
A Clark County sheriff's spokesman confirmed the Child Justice Center detectives arrested Whitaker at his law office Tuesday.
In a probable cause affidavit, a deputy said the abuse happened between February and September of this year.
The Columbian newspaper first reported on the arrest Wednesday.
According to Whitaker's website, he specializes in family law and divorce cases and has been an attorney in Clark County for years.
Whitaker's office declined to comment.
Dean Barrus, stake president of the Vancouver Washington West Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, released this statement Wednesday night:
"We are saddened as a congregation by the allegations that have come forward. When they did come forward, we immediately advised the victim and her family to go to the law and we've been cooperating with them ever since. Right now we are all trying to do all that we can to get to whatever the truth is and move forward. We are praying for the young girl and her family."