What is wrong with Mopologetics in ONE post.

[_Darth J]

Now I'm confused. Do you think Mormons should or should not follow the admonitions of the "prophet"?

any who feel the need to follow such admonitions should. Mormons sometimes feel such a need. so sure.

It takes faith—real faith, unequivocal and unreserved—to accept and attempt to live prophetic counsel even when you don’t completely understand it. But to each of you I have only one question: are you going to follow the true and living prophets or not?

M. Russell Ballard, http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD

[_beastie]

It took me a while to figure out that, basically, internet Mormons usually advocate obedience to the living prophet even while admitting he may be wrong.

It reminds me of the words of Heber C. Kimball, JoD, 6, 32

In regard to our situation and circumstances in these valleys, brethren WAKE UP! WAKE UP, YE ELDERS OF ISRAEL, AND LIVE TO GOD and none else; and learn to do as you are told, both old and young: learn to do as you are told for the future, And when you are taking a position, if you do not know that you are right, do not take it—I mean independently. But if you are told by your leader to do a thing, do it. None of your business whether it is right or wrong, You will get water, if you dig away. That is rather presumptuous doctrine with some people; but with me it is not.

I have heard men teach in this stand that I was under no obligation to do anything, except I had a revelation. I do not believe the doctrine at all. I don't care who preached it. I am not the leader—I am not the Prophet, nor the chief Apostle. I do not hold the keys independently. I have no keys, only what I hold in brother Brigham; and then brother Brigham has the word of God the must do thus and so. He comes to me and says, "Brother Heber, I want you to do thus and so." Wait till I go home, get into my private room, and ask God that I may get a revelation! ain't that pretty, brother Taylor? Well, I will not talk just as I think. If I did, I would knock this pulpit head over heels, when I think of such folly. Go and get a revelation, when God has spoken through my head!—and then the tail goes off, and gets down on his knees to get a revelation, when the head has got one !

http://fairmormon.org/Journal_of_Discourses/6/4

[_thews]

What is wrong with Moplogetics in ONE post:

The Mormon apologist must know the truth in order to distort it. For example:

http://fairwiki.org/Joseph_Smith/Seer_stones

How many seer stones were there?

Joseph first used a neighbor's seer stone (probably Sally Chase, on the balance of historical evidence, though there are other possibilities) to discover the location of a brown, baby's foot-shaped stone. The vision of this stone likely occurred in about 1819–1820, and he obtained his first seer stone in about 1821–1822.[6]

While I respect Brant Gardner's opinions/writing more than most, in the above, note the injection of "though there are other possibilities" which is used to cast some doubt, but it's based on nothing.

Then we have this on the Urim and Thummim from FairMormon:

http://fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon/Tr ... nd_Thummim

The seer stone

Main article: Joseph Smith and seer stones

Many eyewitness accounts confirm that Joseph employed his seer stone during part of the translation process. Martin Harris states that Joseph used the Nephite interpreters and then later switched to using the seer stone "for convenience." [1] In fact, Elder Nelson refers to the use of the seer stone in his 1993 talk:

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote: “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.) [2]

It also appears that the seer stone was sometimes referred to as the "Urim and Thummim," indicating that the name could be assigned to any device that was used for the purpose of translation.[3]

In the above, the use of "appears" and "sometimes" alludes to the conclusion that, sometimes it appears that the name "Urim and Thummim" could be used to describe seer stones. The fact that the Nephite spectacles were taken back after the lost 116 pages (per the D&C 10) proves conclusively that the only tools used to translate every word of the Book of Mormon was, in fact, Joseph Smith's seer stones. This isn't depicted anywhere on the "pro" LDS sites, yet the Mormon apologists all know it's a fact. In order to add distortion, they very consciously choose the words to intentionally cast doubt. That's what's wrong... in one post... they selectively choose to deceive. There never was an Urim and Thummim in Mormon lore, and this is a documented fact.