Poster George Miller: Shamless Mason Apologist.

[_Fence Sitter]

George,

I listened to all your podcasts on ME today regarding Masonry. When will you continue the series?

The one question that kept running through my head in all of it was why would Joseph Smith Jr go to such great lengths to incorporate/expand on all the Masonic stuff if he thought himself a fraud? Do you believe he actually believed in both the Masonic legends and his own prophetic calling?

[_Morley]

.

[_George Miller]

I listened to all your podcasts on ME today regarding Masonry. When will you continue the series?

The podcast series is done but there are a series of upcoming papers which I plan to publish. When these are published I may discuss them in depth on a podcast in the future.

The one question that kept running through my head in all of it was why would Joseph Smith Jr go to such great lengths to incorporate/expand on all the Masonic stuff if he thought himself a fraud? Do you believe he actually believed in both the Masonic legends and his own prophetic calling?

That is a great question!!! It is my considered opinion that Joseph, like most Masons of his day, believed in the completely literal nature of the Masonic legends. It was not until the late 1900s that Masonic historians began doing serious historical into their origins and it became clear that Masonic history was inaccurate. To answer the first half of the question, my research strongly suggests that Joseph Smith actually believed the Masonic myths and that he was trying to restore what he believed was ancient Masonry.

In the process of researching Joseph Smith, I also did a substantial amount of research on the Smith family's magical beliefs. I actually read the main magical texts that the Smiths were likely reading. I then began to look into sociological literature about the nature and practices of believers in ritual magic. Additionally, I looked into scholastic literature about the biological nature of religious experience and the effects of religious ritual. After studying that, I returned to Joseph Smith's accounts and assessed his description of his own religious experience. Based on this research, it is my own personal opinion that Joseph Smith likely experienced the visions and revelation that he described. To answer the second half of your question, it is my academic opinion that Joseph Smith believed his own personal religious experiences and thus truly believed in his own prophetic calling.

It is up to each individual person to decide whether he believes this religious experience was given to Joseph from God, from biology, or if there is no real difference. That is my own take on things, take it for what it is worth, the opinion of another human being.

[_Blixa]

The originals of his Camp Floyd diaries are in the NYPL rare books collection. As far as I know they've not been transcribed and published. I thought there was a biography of Phelps, but after a quick look around the web I can't find it at the moment (if it exists). Phelps wrote a lot on many subjects; a great deal of his observations in the Camp Floyd journals are about meteorology for example. I have some transcribed bits and bobs in my notes from the diaries which might have some of his screeds against Masonry. If I recall correctly, these are mostly just asides in which he, fulminating over one thing, ends up fulminating over all things, including Masonry. I can look up what I have and if you are interested I can take a look at the diaries again.

Phelps is one of the sources about castrated young Mormon men, as well as Dr. Brewer and other's reactions to the bones and hair still strewn around Mountain Meadows two years after when the army first investigated the scene. I think Dale Morgan read these in the NYPL and made transcripts which Juanita Brooks and others used. If I recall correctly there may even be a copy of said transcripts in the Juanita Brooks papers at the Marriott Library at the University of Utah. (Either way, you can tell that those who source Phelps's diaries are using the same transcript because there is a minor transcription error I noted when first reading the journals. Also, as of two years ago, there were only two people who had checked out these diaries in the last decade or so. I'm one and you can probably guess the other.)

Phelps was an interesting man, not only does he have the distinction of being the candidate to historically garner the least amount of votes for President, he was also a keen abolitionist and one of the first in the military to argue for letting runaway slaves play an active role in the Union army (he even tried to resign his commission over this). He was a splendidly over-the-top prose stylist, so even if there is nothing "new" in his journal's anti-masonic tirades, such remarks will be pleasurably couched.

Blixa,

This is in reference to W. W. Phelps correct? Not John W. Phelps.

NO. Captain John W. Phelps of the U. S. Army stationed at Camp Floyd.

[_Fence Sitter]

It is my considered opinion that Joseph, like most Masons of his day, believed in the completely literal nature of the Masonic legends. It was not until the late 1900s that Masonic historians began doing serious historical into their origins and it became clear that Masonic history was inaccurate. To answer the first half of the question, my research strongly suggests that Joseph Smith actually believed the Masonic myths and that he was trying to restore what he believed was ancient Masonry.

In the process of researching Joseph Smith, I also did a substantial amount of research on the Smith family's magical beliefs. I actually read the main magical texts that the Smiths were likely reading. I then began to look into sociological literature about the nature and practices of believers in ritual magic. Additionally, I looked into scholastic literature about the biological nature of religious experience and the effects of religious ritual. After studying that, I returned to Joseph Smith's accounts and assessed his description of his own religious experience. Based on this research, it is my own personal opinion that Joseph Smith likely experienced the visions and revelation that he described. To answer the second half of your question, it is my academic opinion that Joseph Smith believed his own personal religious experiences and thus truly believed in his own prophetic calling.

It is up to each individual person to decide whether he believes this religious experience was given to Joseph from God, from biology, or if there is no real difference. That is my own take on things, take it for what it is worth, the opinion of another human being.

Do you believe he actually had the gold plates?

[_Fence Sitter]

NO. Captain John W. Phelps of the U. S. Army stationed at Camp Floyd.

Were the two related Blixa?

[_George Miller]

Do you believe he actually had the gold plates?

Mike Reed is doing some amazing work on that. All I can say is that it looks like Joseph did indeed have plates, though he may not have understood what he had. This is Mike's work and I am afraid that this is all I am at liberty of saying.

[_Fence Sitter]

Do you believe he actually had the gold plates?

Mike Reed is doing some amazing work on that. All I can say is that it looks like Joseph did indeed have plates, though he may not have understood what he had. This is Mike's work and I am afraid that this is all I am at liberty of saying.

Thanks George.

[_Blixa]

NO. Captain John W. Phelps of the U. S. Army stationed at Camp Floyd.

Were the two related Blixa?

Not that I know of. "My" Phelps was a career army man from Vermont who was briefly at Camp Floyd. That was his only dealing with Mormonism.

[_Mike Reed]

When the Grand Lodge was formed in Utah they banned Mormons from joining or visiting Masonic lodge in Utah. After the ban was introduced by the Utah Masons, the church made it official policy in the Handbook of Instructions that joining of any oath bound organization was strongly discouraged, and it was up to the discretion of the file leader to withhold a temple recommend from anyone who maintained membership in such an organization.

Since Masons excluded Mormons first, it is easy to imagine the Mormon policy as a girlfriend/boyfriend breaking up: You can't break up with me... I am breaking up with YOU!