Holy Ghost on vacation...again...

[_Yoda]

Bumping for Why Me, since he likely didn't see this response. It was buried on another page:

I don't understand why people treat the Holy Spirit as a lookout. That is not His job.

Christ killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Paul killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?
Joseph Smith killed - is that a failure of the Holy Spirit?

Where did this idea come from?

You forgot one thing: this is an antmormon board. Because this is the case, the antimormons and pseudomormons will find any excuse to blame the LDS church or the holy ghost or lack of it in the LDS church. It is ashame really. But such is the nature of this board. As you can see, they ignored your points that you made in my quote of your post.

However, one could be hard on any church that relies on the spirit and yet, abuse occurs. Unfortunately, the antimormons and pseudomormons only concentrate on the LDS church for critism. As my protestan link shows, churches understand freedom of choice and free will. But the ladies and guys on this form just can't seem to get it.

First of all, this is not an anti-Mormon board. Although there are ex-Mormons on this board, it is not anti.

I am also offended that you would refer to me as a pseudo-Mormon. I am more a member of the LDS Church than you ever thought of being. I grew up in the Church. My entire family is active, and I hold both a Ward and a Stake calling. My daughter was sealed in the Raleigh temple this past summer, and her grandfather, the temple president, and my father-in-law sealed her and her husband.

I have not ignored your comment about free agency. You, however, blatantly ignored my comment regarding the how your quote conflicted with the 2nd Article of Faith, which, unless you haven't heard, is part of 13 articles of faith which summarizes the basics of what we in the LDS Church believe.

Get that chip off of your shoulder, and help look for solutions. Quit burying your head in the sand and acting like a problem doesn't exist.

Is society at large problematic involving this incident? Of course it is! No one here is saying that it isn't! But this problem is something that directly affects OUR children. You're a parent. Wake up and take responsibility. You have daughters. Quit acting like there is nothing anyone can do.

You brush off the fact that the Bishop not calling another perpetrator to a 9 year old Primary/Sunday School teacher might be a worthwhile idea.

[_Drifting]

From this weeks Irish Times online...

In her claim, the young woman who is Irish and converted to Mormonism in her teens, alleges the abuse began in about March 2007 when the man took charge of her religious instruction.

She claims the abuse took place at various locations outside Dublin where the man was serving as a missionary. She claims that the man began with inappropriate touching before advancing to more serious forms of abuse including oral sex.

She also claims the man had forcibly restrained and sexually abused her on one occasion while another church elder acted as sentry and alerted the man that other church members were approaching.

When she asked her alleged abuser to stop, he had replied, while it was a “sin” for others to act in such a way, it was not for him as he “was worthy and had been chosen by God”. He also tried to convince her everything he did “manifested through the holy spirit”, she claims.

Despite feeling upset and confused by what was happening, the man told her dreadful things would happen to her if she told anyone what was happening, she claims.

When she had told senior church members about what happened, they told her not to reveal it to her non-Mormon parents or gardaí, she claims. The man moved to another part of Ireland, before eventually going to the US.

Remind me what the process is for authorising people to go on Missions:
1. What level of Priesthood Leader makes the appointment?
2. Is prayer involved in the decision?
3. Does the Holy Ghost pitch in with an opinion?

[_Buffalo]

Jonah, thanks for sharing. That made me want to punch out the bishop and the molesting bastard!

[_emilysmith]

(purely LDS reasoning)

The Holy Ghost is supposed to communicate with people to protect them.
The Holy Ghost can be misheard, go unheard, or totally ignored.

True?

So, the reason the girl was raped was because the people involved were all unworthy and exercised their free agency poorly and were unable to receive communication from the Holy Ghost.

Their poor decisions have now affected the free agency of another person. The victim had no agency, in this case.

I must ask, why has God created a system of free agency where one person's choice to do evil eliminates the free agency of others and creates more evil?

Could he not have come up with a system that was more fair or equal?

I would posit that the system God has supposedly put in place is horribly unfair. He is, therefore, an unfair God.

Ultimately, we are dealing with "The Problem of Evil" and "The Problem of Inconsistent Revelation" and, while Joseph Smith Jr. did his best to reconcile many of the conflicts of Christianity, these are two issues that no mainstream religion has ever been able to properly address. This is why it is a perfectly reasonable position to disregard all of them in favor of explanations that have a more "meta" quality and take into account all cultures, all belief systems (basically, the same thing), all aspects of human behavior and all that we can verify about the concrete laws of nature.

In order for the LDS faith to be true, the laws of nature must be proven to be inconsistent and that has not happened. Nor will it ever happen because the church "is not true" and the world and the universe simply do not operate in the way that the LDS (and many others) teach it to be.

That is the way of it.

The burden of proof, (and I think we have touched upon why proof is important in this thread) is upon the church, if they expect anyone of a reasoning mind to believe how the so-called spirit interacts with our natural processes to produce revelation, spiritual experiences, or anything where humans supposedly interact with "the divine."

The combination of the explanations provided for "The Problem of Inconsistent Revelation" (people are unworthy and choose evil and are unable to get a clear message) and "The Problem of Evil" (the need to have free agency) do not actually fit together into a cogent explanation of everything. Inherently, these and other explanations are an attempt to make God and the world he created seem fair.

It is not fair. God is not fair. Anyone who says differently is deluded. Anyone who expects the average person to believe in the Book of Mormon are unreasonable. The evidence just doesn't back it up.

One anecdotal example, of course, being the case of the 9 year old girl raped in Sunday School who the Holy Ghost was unable to protect.

If God, the Holy Ghost and the people at church are unable to protect a 9 year old girl from getting raped at church, then why are they deserving of our fidelity?

[_why me]

First of all, this is not an anti-Mormon board. Although there are ex-Mormons on this board, it is not anti.

I am also offended that you would refer to me as a pseudo-Mormon. I am more a member of the LDS Church than you ever thought of being. I grew up in the Church. My entire family is active, and I hold both a Ward and a Stake calling. My daughter was sealed in the Raleigh temple this past summer, and her grandfather, the temple president, and my father-in-law sealed her and her husband.
.

This is an antimormon board. No question about it. Sure there are Mormons on this board but I see very few if any conventional Mormon posters. Most are pseudo-mormons to say the least. The conventional Mormons have fled to MDD. I don't remember mentioning your name among the psuedo Mormons. In fact, I didn't mention any names. But you certainly aren't conventional.

[_why me]

[color=#400000](purely LDS reasoning)

The Holy Ghost is supposed to communicate with people to protect them.
The Holy Ghost can be misheard, go unheard, or totally ignored.

True?

No. We humans have free will and free choice to behave in an evil way or in a good way. Some chose evil. This is free choice. Many people have suffered from evil. What does this prove except that humans are capable of evil. But yes, the HG can be ignored. It happens all the time.

[_why me]

From this weeks Irish Times online...

In her claim, the young woman who is Irish and converted to Mormonism in her teens, alleges the abuse began in about March 2007 when the man took charge of her religious instruction.

She claims the abuse took place at various locations outside Dublin where the man was serving as a missionary. She claims that the man began with inappropriate touching before advancing to more serious forms of abuse including oral sex.

She also claims the man had forcibly restrained and sexually abused her on one occasion while another church elder acted as sentry and alerted the man that other church members were approaching.

When she asked her alleged abuser to stop, he had replied, while it was a “sin” for others to act in such a way, it was not for him as he “was worthy and had been chosen by God”. He also tried to convince her everything he did “manifested through the holy spirit”, she claims.
.

Remind me what the process is for authorising people to go on Missions:
1. What level of Priesthood Leader makes the appointment?
2. Is prayer involved in the decision?
3. Does the Holy Ghost pitch in with an opinion?

The whole story sounds fishy. It doesn't even seem Mormon related. How was this man a missionary? And another elder acted as a sentry as the other missionary was getting oral sex? How old was the woman? She certainly wasn't a child. The whole story sounds unbelievable.

[_Drifting]

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Mormon ... -ua=iPhone

Why Me,
This is the link to the story.
The woman was a naïve teenager when the alleged abuse took place.
Her lawyers have gone to the trouble of locating the Elder in question and she is definitely suing the Church and the Elder himself.

Will you believe if it gets settled out of court like other cases involving the Church or does it have to go to trial?

[_sock puppet]

From this weeks Irish Times online...

In her claim, the young woman who is Irish and converted to Mormonism in her teens, alleges the abuse began in about March 2007 when the man took charge of her religious instruction.

She claims the abuse took place at various locations outside Dublin where the man was serving as a missionary. She claims that the man began with inappropriate touching before advancing to more serious forms of abuse including oral sex.

She also claims the man had forcibly restrained and sexually abused her on one occasion while another church elder acted as sentry and alerted the man that other church members were approaching.

When she asked her alleged abuser to stop, he had replied, while it was a “sin” for others to act in such a way, it was not for him as he “was worthy and had been chosen by God”. He also tried to convince her everything he did “manifested through the holy spirit”, she claims.
.

Remind me what the process is for authorising people to go on Missions:
1. What level of Priesthood Leader makes the appointment?
2. Is prayer involved in the decision?
3. Does the Holy Ghost pitch in with an opinion?

The whole story sounds fishy. It doesn't even seem Mormon related. How was this man a missionary? And another elder acted as a sentry as the other missionary was getting oral sex? How old was the woman? She certainly wasn't a child. The whole story sounds unbelievable.

why me, I once had a GA tell me when I was on my mission about a mission president in Japan whom the Missionary Department got suspicious because he left two sister missionaries as companions for 13 months. The investigation revealed that during zone conferences, during the mission president interviews behind closed doors, these sister missionaries were performing fellatio on the mission president. The MP didn't dare separate them for fear one of them might tell her new companion. If you want further details as to the circumstances under which the GA (including his name) was telling this to me, I will share them only through PMs not the open board because it implicates someone that some board members might be able to figure out if I put the information on the board. Let's just say, Mormons are horny too, despite their religious beliefs. There's nothing fishy about the Irish story.

[_Yoda]

First of all, this is not an anti-Mormon board. Although there are ex-Mormons on this board, it is not anti.

I am also offended that you would refer to me as a pseudo-Mormon. I am more a member of the LDS Church than you ever thought of being. I grew up in the Church. My entire family is active, and I hold both a Ward and a Stake calling. My daughter was sealed in the Raleigh temple this past summer, and her grandfather, the temple president, and my father-in-law sealed her and her husband.
.

This is an antimormon board. No question about it. Sure there are Mormons on this board but I see very few if any conventional Mormon posters. Most are pseudo-Mormons to say the least. The conventional Mormons have fled to MDD. I don't remember mentioning your name among the psuedo Mormons. In fact, I didn't mention any names. But you certainly aren't conventional.

Since when does being unconventional make me a pseudo-Mormon?

Since you are unconventional, does that make you a pseudo-Mormon as well? After all, conventional Mormons don't attend Catholic Mass.

As a matter of fact, truly conventional Mormons wouldn't be caught dead on a message board, period...pro or anti-Mormon.