Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

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_asbestosman
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Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _asbestosman »

Buffalo wrote:Not knowing anything about Mormonism and then converting to it is not the same thing as being a faithful Mormon and then losing your faith.

Because those are the only kind of Mormon converts there are.

Classy, though, comparing ex-Mos to felons.

Once you lose your faith and Satan has you bound, what do you think happens?

just kidding
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
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_Themis
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Re: Meeting with Bishop: Faith is a Choice

Post by _Themis »

Hoops,

I am not sure why you want to keep playing this game. The expereince is the evidence. This may be a concept to hard for you to understand. We evaluate the expereinces/evidence and make assumptions/interpretations of what they mean. This is true for all five of the senses and even internal senses like feelings. From those interpretations we can test to see if they work. An example is sight. Does it allow us to navigate successfully to work and back without running into things. The nearly blind person recognizes that their sight is not as reliable with the experience of running into things.

I'll take ANY evidence at all, at this point. Not proof, just something that is not dependent on your experience.


Don't read much do you. I have never said there is. Only that our expereinces are the evidence, and how well the interpretations work out tells us if something works well or not, and is reasonable to conclude is an approximation of reality. The problem I see is that you do this as well, but just want to argue against what you already are doing.

because something works it's real? If it works less well, it's less real?


I never said that. I said it is reasonable to conclude it is a better approximation of what is real, not that it is in any absolute way. If something works less well, then it is less likely to be accurate approximation of reality. It could still be correct, but we have less confidence that it is, or should have based on results. Not that everyone does.

So logic and reason by consensus.


Sure. If your conclusions are different then most, then it is reasonable to reevaluate and not trust that you are right as much.

Track record for what? Talk about circular reasoning. You're basically saying that your experience can be trusted and I know this because of my experience. You fail.


No there is expereince/evidence, from which we come up with assumptions/interpretations. If the A/I don't work well, then we go back and reevaluate them and adjust them and see of we get better results if possible.

You suspect I can't not provide evidence for a position I have not taken? How profound.


I think you are lying. You wouldn't be here if you didn't have a position, and I have noticed you avoid saying what it is so that one cannot really critique what one has not proposed. Problem is you give enough away for others to see what you are trying to do. You also do not seem to get what I am arguing for, and what I am not arguing against. It's hard to discuss it when you don't spend much time trying to understand and then you will in the end do this little false gem

Ah, the old "My thinking is just so superior to yours" defense. How brilliant.


Now why don't you actually make your point of what you are trying to do here in order to have a real discussion. Until then I see no reason to continue playing this game.
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_Themis
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Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _Themis »

asbestosman wrote:
Uh, yeah. Besides the fact that such a thing ignores the many converts to Mormonism.


I wonder how having all the information about the church previous to the missionaries showing up would affect their choice to get baptized.
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_Buffalo
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Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _Buffalo »

asbestosman wrote:
Buffalo wrote:Not knowing anything about Mormonism and then converting to it is not the same thing as being a faithful Mormon and then losing your faith.

Because those are the only kind of Mormon converts there are.



That's the typical profile, yes.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_asbestosman
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Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _asbestosman »

Themis wrote:I wonder how having all the information about the church previous to the missionaries showing up would affect their choice to get baptized.

Once the veil is removed from their eyes, they'd know it was the true church.

And apparently this would deny them agency too.
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_asbestosman
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Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _asbestosman »

Buffalo wrote:That's the typical profile, yes.

Maybe they are comparable. Isn't the typical profile of an ex-mormon someone who knows nothing about ex-mormonism and then converts to it?
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Buffalo
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Joined: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:33 pm

Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _Buffalo »

asbestosman wrote:
Buffalo wrote:That's the typical profile, yes.

Maybe they are comparable. Isn't the typical profile of an ex-mormon someone who knows nothing about ex-mormonism and then converts to it?


Actually, the typical profile of an ex-mormon is a Mormon who knew little about Mormonism and then learned a lot more about Mormonism.
Parley P. Pratt wrote:We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.
_asbestosman
_Emeritus
Posts: 6215
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:32 pm

Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _asbestosman »

Buffalo wrote:Actually, the typical profile of an ex-mormon is a Mormon who knew little about Mormonism and then learned a lot more about Mormonism.

No, that's the typical profile of an internet ex-mormon.

Chapel ex-mor . . . I mean bar ex-mormons are guys who care more about milk strippings and misspelled names. ;)
That's General Leo. He could be my friend if he weren't my enemy.
eritis sicut dii
I support NCMO
_Themis
_Emeritus
Posts: 13426
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _Themis »

asbestosman wrote:Once the veil is removed from their eyes, they'd know it was the true church.


Assuming the church is true, but then the veil is not removed from anyone. Now how do you think knowing the information that most here know about the church from both critic/apologetic might affect whether these converts would have joined?

And apparently this would deny them agency too.


This is what the church teaches, but is incorrect. Having more knowledge does not deny a person agency(the ability to choose). In fact it does the opposite. LDS doctrine is sometimes very inconsistent. One third supposedly had enough agency to choose to follow Satan with a lot of knowledge. while the rest went with Jesus and the father. Now the two thirds have their knowledge stripped to see if they will follow God. This is where we get into some trouble. Are we testing to see if they will be good people, or whether they can correctly interpret some internal experience when we are hearing about God's supposed church. We tell everyone they will have a fair chance, but is that fair chance whether they can correctly interpret this supposed spiritual experience? How can one reject Jesus unless they have enough knowledge, and why would they since they supposedly choose him based on better information in some pre-mortal life.
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_Themis
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Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: #bubbleburst

Post by _Themis »

asbestosman wrote:No, that's the typical profile of an internet ex-mormon.

Chapel ex-mor . . . I mean bar ex-Mormons are guys who care more about milk strippings and misspelled names. ;)


Some, but most usually just leave due to having different needs and wants. This does not mean that those needs or wants are necessarily bad. Many just realize religion is a bit silly and probably not true. They in my opinion are the smartest ones. They didn't need all this other information to figure it out.
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