A Stak Attack, 2 missionaries, and suffering in God's plan

[_Buffalo]

In any case, just how does Jesus "sucker" this poor woman? What does he actually do?

Beats me, I'm not this poor woman nor Jesus. For me, when suffering comes upon me, I usually feel many ways to manage to get over it. Is it me or is there other influence that helps me? That's a fair question. I feel obliged by my faith. Some don't. I also think it possible Jesus can help people without them even realizing He's helping.

You have no idea? That doesn't sound right. Jesus' vicarious suffering is central to the gospel plan but we have no idea in what way he might help someone?

[_Drifting]

Well, He could intervene and stop it happening in the first place ny using the Holy Ghost to nudge a police car or Priesthood holding member in the right direction, as per countless stories told in General Conference and Sacrament Meetings. He won't though, too busy finding car keys...

Its probably possible for Him to show up and go all movie-type hero by out martial artsing bad guys, but that's just not in the program either by His divine wisdom or the laws of eternity.

I'm sure the little 9 year old girl who was 'allegedly' sexually assaulted during lesson time by her LDS Sunday School teacher will, along with her parents, completely understand when He explains it all to them.

[_stemelbow]

God has time to intervene directly to help people find money on the ground or lost keys. But protecting rape victims just isn't that important to him.

Perhaps someday your attempt to attribute something to God that isn't there, will be understood by you. Perhaps. And perhaps someday you'll see it all clearly, of course your mortal life will most likely have long passed on. The same for me though.

[_stemelbow]

You have no idea? That doesn't sound right. Jesus' vicarious suffering is central to the gospel plan but we have no idea in what way he might help someone?

Its individual my good man. Its up the the individual to decide to describe how the help came as it came. Who knows if its the same across the board? Not me. I just highly doubt it is. We all have our own needs.

[_stemelbow]

I'm sure the little 9 year old girl who was 'allegedly' sexually assaulted during lesson time by her LDS Sunday School teacher will, along with her parents, completely understand when He explains it all to them.

That's quite the faith. Get up and walk already.

[Guest]

Stemelbow:

Since "we don't know" with Mormonism, and "we don't know" without Mormonism, either, what exactly does Mormonism have to offer regarding the problem of evil?

[_Buffalo]

You have no idea? That doesn't sound right. Jesus' vicarious suffering is central to the gospel plan but we have no idea in what way he might help someone?

Its individual my good man. Its up the the individual to decide to describe how the help came as it came. Who knows if its the same across the board? Not me. I just highly doubt it is. We all have our own needs.

Has Jesus ever helped you with your own suffering about something? If so, what, specifically, did Jesus do for you?

[_stemelbow]

Stemelbow:

Since "we don't know" with Mormonism, and "we don't know" without Mormonism, either, what exactly does Mormonism have to offer regarding the problem of evil?

The problem here is to question whether a God could be at the head of all these things if evil persists. But if evil persists beyond God, that is God is not all there is and there are others who practice evil in existence, then the problem is greatly reduced. Why? because evil is not a product of God's creation. it simply persists in eternity. Such is the possibility with Mormonism. The devil is not the source of evil, he merely did what was done in other worlds. That which is done in other worlds suggests evil is far more than what we can observe as what is practiced in this world. There is no indication in Mormonism that God can cause existent beings to un-exist. If evil beings persist in eternity then the problem means very little. Evil exists even with a benevolent God because evil is inside some eternal beings.

[_Darth J]

Stemelbow:

Since "we don't know" with Mormonism, and "we don't know" without Mormonism, either, what exactly does Mormonism have to offer regarding the problem of evil?

The problem here is to question whether a God could be at the head of all these things if evil persists. But if evil persists beyond God, that is God is not all there is and there are others who practice evil in existence, then the problem is greatly reduced. Why? because evil is not a product of God's creation. it simply persists in eternity. Such is the possibility with Mormonism. The devil is not the source of evil, he merely did what was done in other worlds. That which is done in other worlds suggests evil is far more than what we can observe as what is practiced in this world. There is no indication in Mormonism that God can cause existent beings to un-exist. If evil beings persist in eternity then the problem means very little. Evil exists even with a benevolent God because evil is inside some eternal beings.

That means God is not omnipotent.

But the LDS Church teaches that God is omnipotent.

Gospel Principles, Chapter 1: Our Father in Heaven

God is perfect. He is a God of righteousness, with attributes such as love, mercy, charity, truth, power, faith, knowledge, and judgment. He has all power. He knows all things. He is full of goodness.

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007)

And when I considered upon these things my heart exclaimed, Well hath the wise man said it is a fool that saith in his heart there is no God [see Psalm 53:1]. My heart exclaimed, All these bear testimony and bespeak an omnipotent and omnipresent power, a Being who maketh laws and decreeth and bindeth all things in their bounds, who filleth eternity, who was and is and will be from all eternity to eternity.

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith, (1998)

Faith in God is to believe that he is, and “that he is the only supreme Governor and independent Being, in whom all fulness and perfection and every good gift and principle dwell independently,” and in whom the faith of all other rational beings must centre for life and salvation; and further, that he is the great Creator of all things, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and by his works and the power of his Spirit omnipresent [see Joseph Smith, comp, Lectures on Faith (1985), 10].

Mormonism is talking about classical theistic attributes of God. Re-defining "omnipotent" is nothing new, either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

Which do you think will come sooner: you telling me what Mormonism brings to the table about the problem of evil that nobody else has thought of, or all that evidence of the Nephites that's out there just waiting to be dug up?

[_stemelbow]

That means God is not omnipotent.

Sure God still has "very great or unlimited power". The very great part works great. In this sense He is omnipotent. As far as unlimited power, then we get into the "can God make a rock too large for Him to lift" nonsense. I suppose that's what you will have to appeal to to maintain your claim. If God works within eternal laws, then that would suggest He is bound to reality. It does not suggest His powers are limited, per se. Unless of course you mean unlimited in that He can't do the impossible, like create out of nothing.

But the LDS Church teaches that God is omnipotent.

Sure He is. he has power to save us. He has power to hear billions of prayers, know each individual on earth and what he/she is thinking and doing at any given moment. that's quite a lot of power, huh?

Mormonism is talking about classical theistic attributes of God. Re-defining "omnipotent" is nothing new, either. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

Redefinitions always come in language. Things change. What's wrong with that?

Which do you think will come sooner: you telling me what Mormonism brings to the table about the problem of evil that nobody else has thought of, or all that evidence of the Nephites that's out there just waiting to be dug up?

There is still tons to dig up out there, if'n they ever decide to dig it up is left to be determined.